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Hello people!
I’ve looked at some PS cycles in Vb 6: Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga—Mahāsaṅgīti Tipiṭaka Buddhavasse 2500
and I found this:
2.12.4. Lokuttarakusalacitta
Katame dhammā kusalā? 365.2Yasmiṁ samaye lokuttaraṁ jhānaṁ bhāveti niyyānikaṁ apacayagāmiṁ diṭṭhigatānaṁ pahānāya paṭhamāya bhūmiyā pattiyā vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati dukkhapaṭipadaṁ dandhābhiññaṁ, tasmiṁ samaye avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā pasādo, pasādapaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. 365.3Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.
I am not aware of how one could be above 8th Jhana yet still do it with avijja.
I would be glad if anyone can explain how this is possible :)
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@Zapper quotes the passage as shown below:
2.12.4. Lokuttarakusalacitta
365.1Katame dhammā kusalā? 365.2Yasmiṁ samaye lokuttaraṁ jhānaṁ bhāveti niyyānikaṁ apacayagāmiṁ diṭṭhigatānaṁ pahānāya paṭhamāya bhūmiyā pattiyā vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati dukkhapaṭipadaṁ dandhābhiññaṁ, tasmiṁ samaye avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā pasādo, pasādapaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. 365.3Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.
You did not look at the heading of “2.12.1. 2.12.1 Avijjāmūlakakusalaniddesa” which means “2.12. Exposition of Good States Rooted in Ignorance”. As such, even though it is a “2.12.4 Lokmuttarakusalacitta” it is still rooted in ignorance.
This is the English translation by U Thittila on 12. Exposition of Good States Rooted in Ignorance.
Below is the translation by U Thittila on “2.12.1. 2.12.1 Avijjāmūlakakusalaniddesa” which means “2.12. Exposition of Good States Rooted in Ignorance”
What states are good? At the time when (a bhikkhu) develops supramundane jhāna tending to release, dispersive of continuing rebirth and death; he, for the abandoning of wrong view, for the entering of the first stage, aloof from sense pleasures,* attains and dwells in the first jhāna that is hard practice and knowledge slowly acquired; at that time because of ignorance there is activity; because of activity there is consciousness; because of consciousness there is mind; because of mind there is the sixth base; because of the sixth base there is contact; because of contact PTS vp 187 there is feeling; because of feeling there is faith; because of faith there is decision; because of decision there is becoming; because of becoming there is BA 244| birth; because of birth there is ageing and death. Thus is the arising of these states.
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It is good to continue this discussion. I need to finish the following post that I have been postponing:
Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada – Acting With Alōbha, Adōsa, Amōha
1. I used another section of the “Paticcasamuppada Vibhanga” for that original post, where it is stated:
kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa; viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana, saḷāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā cittapasado, cittapasada paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkho paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jara, maranan, eva me tassa dhammanan samudhayo hoti.
On the other hand, the verse quoted by Zapper starts with:
Katame dhammā kusalā? Yasmiṁ samaye lokuttaraṁ jhānaṁ bhāveti niyyānikaṁ apacayagāmiṁ diṭṭhigatānaṁ pahānāya paṭhamāya bhūmiyā pattiyā vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati dukkhapaṭipadaṁ dandhābhiññaṁ, tasmiṁ samaye avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā pasādo, pasādapaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.
- Both end up with “dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.” That is one contradiction.
2. There are two other contradictions.
- In the first verse above “kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra” is a contradiction. One cannot generate sankhara via kusala-mula.” Sankhara generation happens with akusala in mind.
- In the second verse above, it starts with Katame dhammā kusalā? and then to “tasmiṁ samaye avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro.” How can be kusala associated with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro“?
3. Finally, kusala means to avoid from akusala. There are no specific kusala kamma. See “Kusala Sutta (AN 10.180).” The confusion is to mix up puñña kamma with kusala kamma.
- Nibbana is reached via cultivating wisdom (paññā.) This is done by fully understanding the Paticca Samuppada process. As I just pointed out in the discussion, “Witness consciousness and Buddha nature,” that leads to breaking samyojana/anusaya.
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Lal:
- In the first verse above “kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra” is a contradiction. One cannot generate sankhara via kusala-mula.” Sankhara generation happens with akusala in mind.
- In the second verse above, it starts with Katame dhammā kusalā? and then to “tasmiṁ samaye avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro.” How can be kusalaassociated with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro“?
How can we resolve these contradictions? Isnt the Tipitaka self-consitent?
They also defined kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra:
368.1Tattha katamo kusalamūlapaccayā saṅkhāro? 368.2Yācetanā sañcetanā sañcetayitattaṁ— 368.3ayaṁ vuccati“kusalamūlapaccayā saṅkhāro” …pe… 368.4tena vuccati“evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hotī”ti.
It looks like kusala mula involves sañcetanā, the cetana that extends rebirths, which is also kamma.
Lal: The confusion is to mix up puñña kamma with kusala kamma.
Does this mean that there can be mistakes in the tipitaka?
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I have explained the following in recent discussions and posts. It is good to summarize:
1. The Sutta Pitaka (and the Vinaya Pitaka) are entirely self-consistent.
- However, one must be able to interpret the meanings of certain Pali words depending on the context. For example, in many cases, phassa, vedana, sankhara, cetana refer to samphassa, “samphassa-ja-vedana”, abhisankhara, sancetana.
2. The Buddha explained the Abhidhamma framework in summary to Ven. Sariputta. The material in the Abhidhamma Pitaka was not taught to the general public during the Buddha’s time. It took over two hundred years of the combined effort of the bhikkus of Ven. Sariputta’s lineage to complete the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
- While most of the material in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is self-consistent and compatible with the Sutta Pitaka, there are contradictions in the “Paticcasamuppada Vibhanga” that I discussed above.
- In addition, one book in the Abhidhamma Pitaka seems to be missing (the one with analysis on hadaya vatthu and pasada rupa.) However, a Commentary on the Abhidhamma (translated into English by Bhikkhu Bodhi) has survived. Thus, we can “fill in gaps.”
3. In summary, we must always prefer the Sutta Pitaka (with the understanding that certain words must be interpreted based on the context, as I pointed out in #1 above.)
- While certain sections of the Abhidhamma Pitaka seem to have issues, it provides a good and self-consistent picture of Buddha Dhamma, starting with the fundamentals. Specific “knotty issues” in the Sutta Pitaka (including the issue with the correct interpretation of certain words pointed out in #1 above) can be easily resolved with Abhidhamma. The background of Abhidhamma is in “Abhidhamma – Introduction.”
- We are lucky to have enough material remaining intact to resolve any issues. We must remember that the Tipitaka was orally transmitted for about 500 years before it was written down. Even that material was slowly getting lost when English civil servants in Sri Lanka started collecting pieces of the Tipitaka scattered over numerous temples in Sri Lanka. We may have lost even more material if it wasn’t for their efforts. I have described these issues in the “Historical Background” section. It takes an effort to understand the historical background over 2500 years.
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In the above, I wrote, “However, one must be able to interpret the meanings of certain Pali words depending on the context. For example, in many cases, phassa, vedana, sankhara, cetana refer to samphassa, “samphassa-ja-vedana”, abhisankhara, sancetana.”
- That is explained a bit more in the rewritten post I just posted: “Kamma are Done with Abhisaṅkhāra – Types of Abhisaṅkhāra“
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