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In Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering, it seems like what is quoted is different from the actual text of Hāravibhaṅgapañcamabhūmi
Quoted: “Tattha tīṇi saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni tisso dukkhatā: uppādo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ saṅkhāradukkhatāya dukkhatā ca, vayo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ vipariṇāmadukkhatā ca, aññathattaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ dukkhadukkhatāya dukkhatā ca, imesaṁ tiṇṇaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇānaṁ..”
Actual text: Tattha tīṇi saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni tisso dukkhatā uppādo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, saṅkhāradukkhatāya dukkhatā ca saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, vipariṇāmadukkhatāya dukkhatāti aññathattaṁ ca saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, (note, there is no “vayo” in the text, and the commas are placed differently. I have bolded other words to show how the text can be broken down, because uppādo does not have dukkhatā while saṅkhāradukkhatāya and vipariṇāmadukkhatāya has.)
dukkhadukkhatāya ca dukkhatā, imesaṁ tiṇṇaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇānaṁ tīsu vedanābhūmīsu adukkhamasukhā vedanā uppādo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, saṅkhāradukkhatāya ca dukkhatā tayo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, sukhā vedanāya ca vipariṇāmadukkhatāya ca dukkhatāti aññathattaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, dukkhāvedanā dukkhadukkhatā ca dukkhatā imamhi imesu navapadesu paṭhamakesu sattasu padesu soḷasasu padesu dukkhā pariyesitabbā, ekādasa dukkhatāya ca lakkhaṇaṁ niddese niddiṭṭhaṁ.
Perhaps the whole text should be translated this way instead? (I had some help from ChatGPT but also integrated my existing knowledge)
- Tattha tīṇi saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni
“There are three lakkhana of sankhata (saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ – singular, saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni – plural)” (Uppādo (arising), vayo (destruction) and ṭhitassa aññathattaṁ (unexpected change) Saṅkhatalakkhaṇasutta) - tisso dukkhatā uppādo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ
“The three dukkhatā (forms of suffering) arise with saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ.” - saṅkhāradukkhatāya dukkhatā ca saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ
“The dukhhatā of sankhāra dukkha arise with saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ.” – because of sankhara required for the Uppādo (arising) nature - vipariṇāmadukkhatāya dukkhatāti aññathattaṁ ca saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ
“The dukhhatā of viparināma dukkha arise with saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ.” – because of the vayo (destruction) and ṭhitassa aññathattaṁ (unexpected change) nature - dukkhadukkhatāya ca dukkhatā
“And also the dukkhatā of dukkha dukkha” - imesaṁ tiṇṇaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇānaṁ
“Of these three saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ - tīsu vedanābhūmīsu adukkhamasukhā vedanā uppādo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ
“Of the three types of vedanā (sukkha, dukkha, adukkhamasukhā vedanā) - the arising of adukkhamasukhā vedanā is a saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ.”
- saṅkhāradukkhatāya ca dukkhatā tayo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ
“the dukhatā of sankhāra dukkha also comes with saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ.” - sukhā vedanāya ca vipariṇāmadukkhatāya ca dukkhatāti aññathattaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ
“The viparināma dukkkha from the unexpected change from sukhā vedana also comes with saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ - dukkhāvedanā dukkhadukkhatā ca dukkhatā
“The dukkha dukkha from dukkha vedanā is also dukkhatā” - imamhi imesu navapadesu paṭhamakesu sattasu padesu soḷasasu padesu dukkhā pariyesitabbā
“In these nine expressions, first among seven, sixteen expressions of suffering must be sought.” (from ChatGPT, don’t understand what these numbers mean) - ekādasa dukkhatāya ca lakkhaṇaṁ niddese niddiṭṭhaṁ
“The characteristic of the eleven types of suffering is explained in detail.” (from ChatGPT, don’t understand what these numbers mean)
I don’t find this translation fully adequate as well, would need some help.
- Tattha tīṇi saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni
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The post in question had several errors. I have rewritten it:
“Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering”
- If the post does not clarify the overall picture, please don’t hesitate to ask or repeat those questions.
- Thank you for pointing out the issues.
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Thank you for revising.
Post: A saṅkhata (anything prepared by the mind, which includes everything in the world) has the following three characteristics: uppāda (arising,) its existence (ṭhiti) before destruction, and vaya (cessation, i.e., it can be stopped from occurring in the future, not its destruction).
Should it be ṭhitassa aññathattaṁ (subjected to unexpected change) instead? As written in point 7 of Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra
- Also, where can we categorise the suffering from “tāpa” or “heat in mind.”, or the vexatious feeling of craving – is it under sankhara dukkha?
- Also, does samphassa-jā-dukkha vedanā fall under dukkha dukkha? For example, hearing ourselves getting scolded
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“Should it be ṭhitassa aññathattaṁ (subjected to unexpected change) instead? As written in point 7 of Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra?”
- There are two ways to interpret “ṭhitassa aññathattaṁ.” (i) One is the “mundane meaning,” where it refers to the “decay of the sankhata” (for example, anything in the external world decays and is destroyed). (ii) The other meaning is deeper, where it refers to the “dhammā” (or the kamma bija) created by the mind with abhisankhara (which leads to such external entities like a person or a tree). Bullet #7 in the post “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra?” refers to the first.
- In the just revised post “Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering” I tried to explain that to some extent.
- The deeper meaning is explained in the post “Aniccaṁ Vipariṇāmi Aññathābhāvi – A Critical Verse.”
“Also, where can we categorize the suffering from “tāpa” or “heat in mind.” – is it under sankhara dukkha?”
- Yes. It is under sankhara dukkha. The mind gets stressed while generating abhisankhara (with raga, dosa, moha), even if we may not realize it. But we can definitely feel it when getting angry.
“Also, does samphassa-jā-dukkha vedanā fall under dukkha dukkha? For example, hearing ourselves getting scolded.”
- No. Samphassa-jā-dukkha vedanā is created by the mind. So, it should come under sankhara dukkha.
- Dukkha dukkha is mainly “vipaka” coming to the physical body. However, based on that, we also generate samphassa-jā-dukkha vedanā (in the mind).
- So, this categorization is not very clear-cut.
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There are two types of “sankhata.”
1. The first type includes everything we see, hear, taste, smell, and touch in the external physical world. It also includes all living beings in the world.
- As we have discussed in recent posts, both living and non-living (inert) things in the world are sankhata because they all have their origins in mind: “Mind-Pleasing Things” in the World Arise via Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- All those are subject to arising (uppada) and decay. Anyone (including puthujjanas) can see that. That is the “mundane anicca nature,” i.e., we cannot maintain anything in prime condition for long times, even though that is what anyone would like or desire (icca).
2. The second type of sankhata is dhammā. These are kamma bija that accumulate via the abhisankhara generation.
- These dhammā also belong to the rupa category. However, they lie below the suddhatthaka stage. As we know, all sankhata in the first category above are made of suddhatthaka. See “What are rūpa? – Dhamma are rūpa too!.”
- These dhammā are responsible for the presence of sankhata of the first category in #1 above. The rebirth of a living being is brought by dhammā accumulated by that specific being. On the other hand, the presence of other non-living things is via the collective dhammās generated by all living beings. See “Sensory Inputs Initiate “Creation of the World” or “Loka Samudaya”.”
- The generation of dhammā (that type of sankhata formation) happens in the mind. That is what Buddha Dhamma is focused on.
- The discussion of uppada, ṭhiti, and vaya is focused on dhammā. Here, uppada is the arising of dhammā via abhisankhara formation. Once a dhammā (or a kamma bija) is initiated it remains in vinnana dhatu and can grow with further abhisankhara generation. The critical point is that vaya means the nirodha of those dhammās. Many translate “vaya” as “destruction,” but that is incorrect (the reason they do that is that they focus on sankhata of the first type in #1 above.) Nirodha or vaya means that an entity becomes ineffective. Nirodha also means “nir” + “uda” or “stop arising.” For example, an Arahant does not generate dhammā.
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Lal: All those are subject to arising (uppada) and decay. Anyone (including puthujjanas) can see that. That is the “mundane anicca nature,” i.e., we cannot maintain anything in prime condition for long times, even though that is what anyone would like or desire (icca).
This is explained as the “mundane anicca nature“, so I presume that it would lead to mundane dukkha nature and mundane anatta nature. So
- we cannot maintain anything in prime condition for long times, even though that is what anyone would like or desire (icca). (anicca)
- Because of this, there is suffering (dukkha)
- Therefore, everything in this world is of no essence (anatta) – Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā
Does this mean that the above analysis I just described is mundane and cannot take us to Nibbāna, even if we can reduce and even stop Tanha from arising (Tanha Nirodho) using this analysis (2nd, 3rd Noble Truth)?
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“Does this mean that the above analysis I just described is mundane and cannot take us to Nibbāna, even if we can reduce and even stop Tanha from arising (Tanha Nirodho) using this analysis (2nd, 3rd Noble Truth)?”
- The mundane meaning of anicca you described in nothing new. Anyone can see that anything in this world cannot be maintained in its prime condition.
- If that is the case, why must we learn Buddha Dhamma?
- No. “tanha nirodha” cannot be achieved by looking at the external world. One must understand how those things in the external world arise to induce tanha in us, AND why our bodies have the intrinsic built-in mechanism to generate tanha.
- Even just learning about the deeper meaning in Buddha’s teachings is not enough. To cultivate the anicca saññā and to get rid of kāma rāga (and attain the Anagami stage), One must cultivate the correct version of Satipatthana based on it.
- However, just learning/comprehending the deeper version (to some extent) can help attain the Sotapanna stage because that requires only getting rid of the sakkaya ditthi (the wrong view that acquiring worldly things can remove suffering).
- Getting rid of kāma saññā is more difficult.
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I see, we need to look at the previously unheard teachings of the Buddha.
I am abit confused with my own experience. I find that my attachment to sensual pleasures have decreased over time, eg craving food, watching shows. However, the main bulk of my contemplation is experiential – eg what I can see and realise. Some examples are
- Observing that the mind is stressed when desiring something (it doesnt take a Buddha to discover this, just some keen observation of the mind)
- Contemplating that pleasure is brought about when there is relief from the stressed mind, but the stressed mind comes first – the external world does not actually bring us pleasure but it is created from our wanting minds (this can be explained with many analogies as well and by experience, eg pudding does not taste good after 100 plates but it tastes good if you have been staring at it for a while)
- That things are not to our liking, they are created by causes, our expectation or liking is not a cause, we cannot mantain them to our liking (mundane anicca)
- We only experience nice feelings for a very short moment (like a bubble pop) and then we move on to look for the next one
- When I suffer, the main reason is because I am attached to something. Eg when I get scolded, I feel bad because I am attached to my ego and receiving praises – if not for these 2 I would not feel anything.
- Contemplating the amount of effort I take to do things, eg realising that I need to find ways to create time to watch shows, even chewing is effort, or constantly opening eyes to watch shows is tiring (mundane sankhara dukkha)
- Contemplating the effort required to mantain things, eg if I buy a nice shirt, then I would have to take care of it, wash it in special conditions (mundane sankhara dukkha)
- Contemplating the future suffering with unexpected change, eg if the shirt gets destroyed (mundane viparinama dukkha)
- Contemplating that the more I satisfy cravings, the stronger the cravings (paticca samuppada, but you just need a basic understanding of habits and psychology to get this as well)
These things are quite effective in reducing the craving at that moment, and also I have felt that my attachement to sensual pleasures have generally reduced.
Since these are “mundane” contemplations (they don’t involve kamma, rebirth, technically people can figure these out without a Buddha), does it mean that it is not towards Nibbana, and that my reduced kama raga is not towards Nibbana as well?
I need to clarify that at this point, I do believe in the concepts of rebirth, and how attaching to things contribute to rebirth (paticca samuppada), but they are not a bulk of my contemplation.
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Yes. What you described is the early stage of the Sotapanna Anugami level. As you mentioned, we can observe changes in ourselves at all stages of this process. Of course, it may take a few months to see some changes, but others can happen in days or minutes if one makes a significant step while contemplating.
- It is a step-by-step process. It is rare for someone to see the deeper level (that we discussed in recent posts) in “one shot.”
- The next step is to see that the “mundane anicca nature” results from an internal mental process.
The rebirth process is critical because the results of that internal mental process have consequences beyond this life. It is impossible to form a complete, self-consistent worldview without the rebirth process playing a role.
- Contemplating how one’s gati leads to rebirth in different realms could be beneficial. This would connect the internal mental process to future lives.
- Different gati are cultivated by repeatedly engaging in the same corresponding type of abhisankhara formation.
- The key is to see the importance of examining one’s inner thoughts, i.e., the internal mental processes.
P.S. The type of saññā that comes with birth in a given realm depends on the gati that led to that birth.
- For example, a pig is born with a “likable saññā” for eating dirty things. That is because, as a human in a previous life, it had developed gati to engage in “dirty deeds.”
- In the same way, people who kill are reborn as vicious animals.
- On the other hand, humans who engage in moral deeds and enjoy doing good deeds are reborn as Devas or Brahmas. Not only the mindset (saññā) but also the environment match those gati.
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Thank you. So to clarify
Mundane Tilakkhana:
Mundane Anicca – Things are not to our liking, anywhere in this 31 realms. They are bound to nature’s laws (laws to kamma), and are not to our control, we also have to give everything up at death. Nicca will be that there will at least be something to our liking, eg in higher planes, material objects.
Mundane Dukkha – Because of the anicca nature, if we attach to them, we will experience suffering (viparinama dukkha). We also face suffering as we spend effort work towards achieving and mantaining things (sankhara dukkha).
Mundane Anatta – Because everything in this world has the above Anicca and Dukkha nature, they are not worth striving for, and provides no essence to us
Supramundane/ Arya Tilakkhana:
Supramundane Anicca – The world is of Anicca Nature because attaching on to things keep us in the rebirth process. This is especially if we do bad needs to achieve things, which will bring bad vipaka and even bring us to the Apayas. Nicca will be that there will be no kammic consequences to immoral deeds or attaching to things and we can do as we like. You said:
- Contemplating how one’s gati leads to rebirth in different realms could be beneficial. This would connect the internal mental process to future lives.
This will help to understand the above anicca nature.
Supramundane Dukkha – Because of this anicca nature and laws of kamma, there is much suffering caused, especially in the Apayas (dukkha dukkha). Even without doing bad deeds, there is still death in every realm, and birth is caused by attaching to things via the paticca samuppada process.
Supramundane Anatta – Therefore, one is helpless in this rebirth process
The concept of distorted sañña can help to understand why we see things as Nicca Sukkha Atta.
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Yes. That is a good description!
- Also, see the discussion in another thread: Ignorant Mind perceives a “self”
The root cause of all this is the following: All our attachments are due to a “perceived self,” and that sense of a “self,” “me,” or “mine” arises due to the (distorted) saññā of experiencing “a sense of joy” with certain sensory inputs (for a human it is things like the taste of honey, the smell of perfume, beauty of a woman or handsomeness of a man, etc; but that is not common to other living beings, for example animals. Thus, such “a sense of joy” is not real, but it is a bit hard to see how it arises.)!
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Hmm, I still cant help but have the thought that it need not be so complicated. In Waharaka Thero’s How to attain Nibbana as a lay Buddhist (First Discourse), kindly translated by Janith Boniface Fernando. Thero did not explain the more complex mechanisms of how one’s gati influences rebirth, distorted sañña etc. He only uses simple logical arguments. He says the dhamma is supposed to be simple. I have quoted excerpts from the english transcript by Janith Boniface Fernando to get an idea the type of arguments:
(21.26) To find what Dhamma actually grants Nirvana, one has to get the phrase “yada nichchan – tan dukkhan; yan dukkhan – tadanaththa” clarrified. Only that much is required. In those days the disciples, having listened to this much, weren’t listening to Dhamma for hours, for years. May be one or two hours. No previous practice of listening to Dhamma even. The folks that came to the Lord Buddha to listen to what he had to say, did not even know what Buddhism is. The one who sat down to listen, by the time he got up after listening to a few phrases of Dhamma, had already become a stream enterer. So, it is very much clear now, the amount of Dhamma we should listen to grasp the concept of Nirvana, to visualsie what is Nirvana, is not so much.
He explains above why it should be simple
(38.00) “Icca” means the will or expectation, “Anicca” means not in accordance to the will. This is the cause. If something is not agreeable to the expectation, then it causes suffering. Now let’s have our thinking hats on. We don’t expect to have suffering, do we like that? No. Will it stop, just because we want the suffering to end. We don’t like suffering, but itbefalls. We don’t want something that we like to fall into disrepair. But can we avoid that from happening? It goes onto disrepair, so is this in accordance with our will or expectation? There, the Anicca means, not in accordance with our liking, it will not satisfy our expectation, unsatisfactory. Now we are feeling a pleasure, and it is going to pass. Do we like that, no. Will it stop from going to pass? Nope. It slips away. If there is something called pleasure, something called suffering, both are not in line with our liking, our expectation. Both will not satisfy us. If there is something called pleasure, something called suffering, both are not in line with our liking, our expectation. Both will not satisfy us. This is anicca, not to my liking.
As you can see, only “mundane” explanations of anicca, just logic and no metaphysical phenomenon.
(42.51) When you see the Dhamma, you see the truth, you see the Buddha. That is enlightenment. The enlightenment lies here, not in some highfalutin jargon. Thus, we have to see, that we cannot keep anything to our liking. We have to understand only this much. What is so difficult about it. We did not see this much in our way too long, samsaric journey. We didn’t have divine vision or some psychic power to see that. We were unable to see our previous births.
And he says that only this much is needed to be understood.
He also described why we were unable to understand this simple logic – we could not see our previous births. Even though some yogis could, they believe that the high realms could provide refuge, which the Buddha also saw that there will be death. So perhaps this is the “previously unheard” teaching, and it need not go as far to distorted sañña/ rebirth dependent on gati for one to reach Nibbana.
Of course, learning the deeper concepts are still helpful too.
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@pathfinder
You referred to the English transcript by Janith Boniface Fernando. Do you know that there is a transcript prepared by Lal himself:
https://puredhamma.net/wp-content/uploads/Waharaka-Thero-Discourse-The-Way-to-Nibbana.pdf
As you said, this desana is in simple language, yet I find it a tremendous resource, and review it very often. Hope everyone finds great benefits from it.
Best,
Lang
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If ten people listened to a discourse by Wahraka Thero (or anyone else), they would understand it in their own way. Thus, the quality of translation depends on the translator.
- Reading my posts is the same. Different people understand at various levels, including not much understanding in some cases.
- Bahiya understood one verse by the Buddha and attained the Arahant stage in a few minutes; none of us have that level of wisdom (it is based on pāramitā or how much one has learned in previous lives). Devadatta spent a lifetime with the Buddha and did not learn anything useful (imagine how many discourses of the Buddha he listened to); he ended up in an apaya. Each person is different.
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Thank you, Lang. I had forgotten about making this translation. I think it was done because of a similar situation in the discussion forum.
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