[pathfinder]

Hi everyone

I have been confused about what are the thoughts that should be cultivated behind giving. I understand that giving/ doing good deeds helps to clear the mind and help one on the path. However, because of that understanding, before I give I will have the thought of: “I should do so because this helps clear my mind”. We are also encouraged to do Ariya Metta Bhāvana to gain benefits from it. Although the wishes can be truly thought out in one’s heart, the initial intention of engaging in Metta Bhāvana is to work towards Nibbana.

Would the intention of giving as a means to work towards Nibbana “stain” the thought? Is it good to have such thoughts and should it be cultivated/ rejected? 

Another thought is: Do we give just so that it can help us towards Nibbana? Hypothetically if there are no benefits of doing so, what should be the reason that we give?

Thank you

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gopinadh

[Yash RS]

What I understand is that the intention to give should be there because you truly want to give, out of compassion and kindness for the receiving party . And after that it should be reflected that ” May all beings including me have the benefits of this merit and attain Nibbana”. 

If someone gives only to expect some benefit in return, that is a stained thought as it doesn’t really involve compassion and kindness, it involves greed. 

Cultivating a mindset of compassion and kindness is Nibbana.

Kammic law will give the giver, that’s bound to happen depending upon the conditions. But it’s all about the mindset.

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pathfinder, gopinadh

[Lal]

Yes. Yash’s explanation is correct.

The following are three posts related to providing answers to similar questions.

• Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?
• Sila, Samadhi, Panna to Panna, Sila, Samadhi
• Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna)

Please feel free to ask questions. 

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pathfinder

[pathfinder]

Thank you Yash, Lal.

I have read the posts, and my understanding is that moral conduct and good deeds are required to attain Nibbana. Howver, it still seems that the main reason behind doing good deeds is to work towards Nibbana. Again I raise the example of Ariya Metta Bhāvana. I would think that people do it to progress, or at least start off this habit to progress on the path, more so than relieving all beings of suffering. Hence the intention becomes more of “I want to do good deeds and make my mind suitable for learning dhamma” more so than “I want to rid all beings of suffering” when doing Metta Bhāvana. Why else would people start doing Metta Bhāvana?

Perhaps another question that can help phrase this query would be: Why do Arahants still do good? Are there Arahants who do not choose to help others, they act like this not out of Lobha Dosa and Moha, they just choose not to? An example would be that an Arahant walks down a street and sees many people who needs help. Eg homeless, depressed, ignorance of dhamma, carrying heavy objects. Would he strive to help each and every of them?

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gopinadh

[gopinadh]

To Path finder : 

Sir can i submit something? I have just started to read the links to the basics which Lal sir posted.  But your observations resonate so beautifully.  We learn of a concept called “silabatta paramasa” –  one of the three fetters which a Stream Enterer -Sotapanna – transcends. I will try and articulate my submission with an example:

Example: Something inside me tells me,  not to harm animals for my food. (Basically not only mine,  everyones mind is Pure. Or inside everyone is Metta/Karuna/Softness. This is only an example and i am not suggesting any right or wrong on eating meat- please).  However, coming back to the example ,  i cant abstain from eating meat because of various reasons such as habit etc , so-  i slowly start inculcating a habit of gradually reducing the concumption,  listening to my “iner voice” . In as much i try and abstain and am still cultivating the habit, these concepts and tools (such as Punna Kamma)  will help me- to focus back – to stay on the track and are the only way i can listen and implement my inner voice. However its still a conflict , a struggle. Its  silabatta paramasa. A discipline is required , if at all i have to live as a sane human being –  but imposed from outside and i try and comply with it – seeing the facts. 

But just like fruit which ripen, winds that blows across the fields-  making the tall grass dance , my heart eventually falls in its place. Right Actions come without any “effort”. Now , i need not worry  to keep on track and from abstaining bad deeds . All i do is holistic, i have dropped eating meat now “naturally”. In fact i have forgotten about it. (example sirs.) 

Here we can see all the Metta in its full grace. Here all individuals/individuality  disappear. Man to man, man to animals, man to society, husband and wife- i dont know. Life blossoms in full glory in such  relationships.  The individual is not at all in conflict within himself , while so responding “correctly” and as required  to the situation. That is, his intentions, actions and requirements -morally, socially are in harmony- no friction at all.  He has transcended Silabatta paramasa. A “discpline” which was earlier imposed from outside and had to be implemented with great care and  effort,  now flows naturally. If it is required it flows out, else it rests.

///I am now in my 40s, may be another 20, 30 or 40 – who knows-? 

but even long after i am gone and my bones become dust, there will always be a helping hand , somewehere – someone – whose heart beats out- now does it matter an iota -that it will not be “mine” or “yours”? if so – isnt it where i too – will go when i have to go? ///

Just my submission sir. Am i correct sir? please tell me . (i could be much much  older to you- “Sir” is just a protocol, so please dont mind).  

[Tobi-Wan Kenobi]

If you follow the links you can see what Metta Bhavana is connected to.

Almsgiving giving comes from compassion, but what is compassion good for? Compassion in conjunction with Metta Bhavana is a cultivation of the mindset that seeks to read the Pancakkhandha of the other person. For the Buddha said that Pancakkhanda is everything in the world. In the Pancakkhandha concept discussed in Buddhism, the five Khandhas or “heaps” are the components of the human experience. Let’s take a closer look:

Rūpa (Matter): This Khandha refers to physical matter or form. In the Kama-Rūpa-Arupa-Lōka there are indeed material things, but a being’s Rūpakkhandha consists of memories of everything it has ever perceived, including hopes and plans for the future.

Vēdanā (Sensation): This khandha includes sensations such as pleasure, displeasure or neutrality. These are purely spiritual.
Saññā (perception): This is about the perception of things. This is also a spiritual aspect.
Sankhāra (Mental Formations): This Khandha refers to mental processes such as thoughts, intentions and habits. Everything we think or plan falls into this category.
Viññāna (Consciousness): The consciousness that experiences the other Khandhas is also mental.
The Pancupādānakkhandha is a deeper consideration of these five piles. It refers to the “attached aggregates” that we grasp and hold close(tanha) to us based on our desires and attachments. The character determines(gati ). These are purely spiritual and represent only a fraction of the entire experience of Pancakkhandha. The first step towards Nibbāna is Sammā Ditthi. Unless one knows and understands the true nature of this world, one cannot attain Sammā Ditthi. Ditthi (our worldview) is a critical part of both the Pancakkhandha and the Pancupādānakkhandha. Our decisions depend crucially on Ditthi

Overall, the concept of Pancakkhandha shows that our experience of the world consists not only of physical things, but also of mental processes, sensations and perceptions. If we understand this, we can advance towards purification and understanding of life, all the way to Nibbana.

Metta Bhavana thus establishes a mindset to grasp Pancakkhandha of every sentient being. We empathize with the other person and this is only possible if we try to see ourselves as stuck in their form. It is a cultivation of a universal key to Pancakkhandha that is good for mind reading and cultivates a mindset that also helps us to reduce ourselves from some samyōjana, such as freeing us from sakkāya-diṭṭhi, or the reduction of hostility (vyāpāda, byāpādo). So when we perform Matta Bhavana with (Panna) wisdom about the Four Noble Wisdoms/Tilakkhana/PS i.e. understanding the important concepts described on the puredhamma page it leads to Nibbana. COOLING OF THE MIND.

For example, when we move from the Vijānāti stage to the Abhijānāti in our mindset, it becomes Ariya Metta Bhāvana, and that only begins at the Anagami stage of the Magga Phala. Then panna becomes: “Paññā panāvuso, kimatthiya”ti? Paññā kho, āvuso, abhiññatthā pariññatthā pahanatthā”ti.” OR “What is the purpose of wisdom?” The purpose of wisdom is a complete understanding that leads to the termination of the rebirth process (by giving up this world). The cultivation of metta bhāvanā is also associated with the stage of anāgāmi (not reborn in a womb). So it also reduces lōka samudaya. Since everything in the world is controlled by Pancakkhandha and It is rooted in six root causes (mūlika hētu). You should now see what mindset METTA is associated with, also in terms of cultivating jhanas to achieve the goal…

[Lal]

Pathfinder: “I have read the posts, and my understanding is that moral conduct and good deeds are required to attain Nibbana. Howver, it still seems that the main reason behind doing good deeds is to work towards Nibbana. Again I raise the example of Ariya Metta Bhāvana. I would think that people do it to progress, or at least start off this habit to progress on the path, more so than relieving all beings of suffering. Hence the intention becomes more of “I want to do good deeds and make my mind suitable for learning dhamma” more so than “I want to rid all beings of suffering” when doing Metta Bhāvana. Why else would people start doing Metta Bhāvana?

• Yes. That is quite correct.
• There are two major steps to Nibbana: (i) One must cultivate “moral conduct” (mundane sila) and also get rid of the ten wrong views. (ii) After that one can start comprehending the Four Noble Truths. The point is without believing in rebirth or the existence of other realms, it is not possible to grasp the deeper concepts like the Four Noble Truths and Paticca Samuppada.
• See “What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma?“

Pathfinder: “Why do Arahants still do good?”

• They do that out of compassion. They have fully understood what suffering is (it is not limited to this life.)
• In fact, it would be better for them to terminate life and end their “remaining suffering arising from the physical body they were born with.” But they don’t do that out of compassion. They want to help others as much as they can, as long as they live.
• There were a couple of Arahants who had unbearable bodily suffering (due to illnesses). They got permission from the Buddha to commit suicide. There was no point in them bearing that suffering since they could not help anyone.

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Yash RS

[gopinadh]

Sir i would like to first submit that i now finished going  through the links including the Metta Bhavana Sutta Link in Tobi’s post.

I dont know why no one is answering the original question directly or taking it to a logical end-  point blank  as Yash RS did. 

Yash RS: If someone gives only to expect some benefit in return, that is a stained thought as it doesn’t really involve compassion and kindness, it involves greed. 

Wow, Thats enough for me. One can take it or leave it.  

[Tobi-Wan Kenobi]

Hi gopinadh, what Yash RS said is not wrong. But is it also profound and is it useful in the direction of Nibbana, as Pathfinder asked?

From your answer I understand that compassion is not greed but Alohba. Is that enough for you? I wasn’t expecting an analysis for a few days.<br />
What exactly is compassion in relation to Bhavana that helps on the path to Nibbhana? What is Metta? So what do I do to understand how the other person suffers and what do I cultivate so that it helps us on the way to Nibbana? Is it enough to simply understand that the thought is tainted?

So is it a defilement if I want to repay my debts in the form of giving,.I do it for myself?

Maybe it’s enough for you, maybe it’s not enough, but for me the understanding is not deep enough.

P.S.

So I am saying that the reason for giving is based on metta and metta with bhavana is to cultivate a part of satipaṭṭhāna. It is the understanding that the 5 aggregates do not belong to me. And it’s rooted in; Ekāyano ayaṁ, bhikkhave, maggo sattānaṁ visuddhiyā

[gopinadh]

Tobi , thank you. 

I would like to submit that what yash said, is profound , because then ,in that pure instant of “giving” he or she in ” giving” transcends his own self and conditioning.

I think , It opens open a door way to see the potentiality for  ” purity” or”immensity” which anyone or everyone is capable of.

In such giving the psychological tomorrow ( upadana  paccaya bhava) comes to an end and all  “having” is recognized to be anicca,dukkha and anatta. 

And bhavana is to tune back to this immensity( potentiality). In such ” jhana” the defilements get burnt. ( jhayati). 

I therefore think tobi, that  bhavana either it be in metta bhavana or mudita bhavana etc  is more about tuning back to this potential and regaining it. This potential includes ” mudita” , “metta”,….etc and eventually nibbana. 

In that tuning these deeds get done with effort like in the case of laymen like me, once tuned (magga phala commences) they flow. This is the flow or sota , perhaps,which all aspire to enter( sota panna). In that natural flow all order and discipline in ones life, flow seamlessly  without the need for getting  imposed from outside(silabatta paramasa).

Please add/ correct it toby.  I tried to connect various lessons.regards.

[pathfinder]

Thank you Gopinadh, Tobi, Lal and Yash. 

I agree that giving would be as what you all said, to give with compassion and not expect something in return. A benefit of this would be to of course, help us towards Nibbana, but that should ideally not be the main thought behind giving. However, this may be difficult initially.

Hence, I resonate with Gopinadh, “A “discpline” which was earlier imposed from outside and had to be implemented with great care and  effort,  now flows naturally. If it is required it flows out, else it rests.”

Perhaps at first, it may not be easy to give from compassion itself, and one has give for the goal of attaining Nibbana. One example is that 2 weeks ago, after listening to a desana on requiring good moral conduct to condition the mind for dhamma concepts, I thought to myself: “I will give this $10 note to the next beggar I see”. This act of kindness had to be prompted intially, and the goal was to clear my mind more so than to help the person. However as we cultivate it, it will flow naturally without prompting. After giving, I felt a lightness in my chest, and a clearer mind. Hopefully if this habit is cultivated, I will give without prompting.

And thank you Tobi for taking the time to link all the posts in your explanation. My aha moment was “Metta Bhavana thus establishes a mindset to grasp Pancakkhandha of every sentient being.” Well said! I can now carry out Metta Bhavana with this angle.

I am also very grateful for everyone’s explanations here, it is my first time on this forum and I am heartened by your efforts in helping me understand!

[gopinadh]

Pathfinder: am also very grateful for everyone’s explanations here, it is my first time on this forum and I am heartened by your efforts in helping me understand!

Big words for me pathfinder. I am in the same boat boss, if not in the one behind. There is a treasure trove of dhamma here at this site given by Lal Sir in his kindness and there are many users of these forums who seem to have a very deep understanding of the concepts given by Lal Sir . For instance tobi-obivously his depth reflects all the work he must have put in. 

Whenever I post , i post with this in mind and that i am only being given an opportunity to express and learn. This is done with a  lot of patience  by lal sir and senior members when they reply and chip in. 

In  the times we are going through , where insanity seems to prevail , this is yet another oasis. 

All the best. 

Ps: guys it seems singapore  unfortunately has a sudden spurt of  Covid cases. They are projecting a  wave there soon in and around june/july. . Only minimal advisories like wearing masks have been so far issued. The variant is not a critical one it seems. Things as of now seem under control. 

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pathfinder

[Tobi-Wan Kenobi]

Hello Gopinadh. (In reference to;#49834)

I also believe Yash has a deep understanding. Now they bring in another aspect called “Mudita” but it is more based on the elimination of Kama Raga which Yash also referred to. Metta has many aspects. For me, pure giving is associated with Pancakkhandha. Mudita involves the joy of mind through the elimination of Kama Raga. The highest aspect of Mudita is then related to the cultivation of Ariya Jhanas. One would eliminate Kama Raga to go beyond Kama Loka and enter into the Rupavacara Brahma realm mindset.

• And they also said; “With such giving, the psychological tomorrow (upadana paccaya bhava) comes to an end and all “having” is recognized as anicca, dukkha and anatta.”
  You can say that and it is put very poetically. I call it the cultivation of Ariya Upekkha through the cultivation of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta Sanna.
• And they also said; “And Bhavana means to reflect on this immensity (possibility). In such a “Jhana” the impurities are burnt. (jhayati).”
  In my opinion, Bhavana is not the same as Jhana…it can lead to Ariya “Jhana” if used correctly.

The correct version of Satipatthana Bhavana cultivates all of these.

P.S. I would also like to thank everyone involved and would like to conclude by saying that everyone always had different thoughts when looking at it and you can even see that in our appearance. With Metta Tobi

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pathfinder, gopinadh, Yash RS

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