A Question about Paññā of Puthujjanō

  • This topic has 5 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 7 months ago by Lal.
Viewing 5 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #47130
      Samma-ditthi
      Participant

      Theruwan Saranai, Sir

      I thought paññā cetasika can be arising after getting the basic concept about Buddha Dhamma(e.g., anicca) with becoming one of the 8 Ariyas only, but the thinking has been changed a bit because of your post, “Cetasika – Connection to Gati.”

      “Of course, those are developed to some extent when someone lives one’s life morally, but they will NEVER grow to higher stages until one understands anicca, dukkha, and anatta, at least to some extent.”

      The explanation above came after the explanation about 6 (special) sobhana cetasika.

      Now I think, as paññā can be developed through the mundane eight fold path also, and that mundane version of paññā leads to paññā indriya(one of the five indriya, fairing with saddhā) even if he is still in puthujjanō state.

      (actually, It’s hard to say puthujjano have 4 indiryas only, except paññā indriya)

       

      And as I learned, Sammā diṭṭhi has two sides; Mundane / lokottara, and considering that, puthujjanō who understands the Buddha Dhamma on a mundane level has paññā via his mundane Sammā diṭṭhi.

      By following the context above, I could get a conclusion as paññā cetasika can arise in the mind in puthujjanō, too. (of course, It’s mundane ver and weak compared to Ariya)

      Please check whether my view is correct, Sorry for my rough English expression.

      Thanks for reading!

    • #47139
      Lal
      Keymaster

      You wrote: ” Now I think as paññā can be developed through mundane eight fold path also, and that mundane version of paññā leads to paññā indriya (one of the five indriya, fairing with saddhā) even if he is still in puthujjanō state.”

      • That is not correct.

      A puthujjana does not have even a trace of paññā.

      • However, when a puthujjana STARTS to comprehend the “anicca nature” and how that leads to “dukkha” (suffering), then he becomes a Sotapanna Anugami.
      • That understanding is firmly established when he becomes a Sotapanna. Nevertheless, a Sotapanna Anugami is a Noble Person (Ariya) and WILL get to the Sotapanna phala moment. There is no “going back” to become a puthujjana.
      • Therefore, one is either a puthujjana OR an Ariya. There is no overlap. However, the boundary is murky (not a clear-cut boundary.) 

      Theruwan Saranayi!

    • #47141
      Samma-ditthi
      Participant

      Thanks for your reply, but I still don’t get why did you say as below. I pasted your explanation once again.

      “Of course, those(_6 cetasikas contains Paññā in the post I/me linked_)  are developed to some extent when someone lives one’s life morally, but they will NEVER grow to higher stages until one understands anicca, dukkha, and anatta, at least to some extent.”

      This mentioning makes me think like Paññā also can be developed to lower level via lives in moral life without understanding tillakkhana. this is the spot all the issue/curiousity came from.

      the word ‘someone‘ in the sentence ‘when someone lives one’s life morally’ = puthujjana, am I right?

      As I said above in the first, I thought ‘paññā cetasika can be arising after get the basic concept about Buddha Dhamma(e.g., anicca) with becoming one of the 8 Ariyas only.’ I totally agree that It’s impossible for puthujjanō to have paññā, even a trace of it as you said, and that’s the reason of I can’t understand the explanation you wrote below:

      “Of course, those are developed to some extent when someone lives one’s life morally, but they will NEVER grow to higher stages until one understands anicca, dukkha, and anatta, at least to some extent.”

       

      I hope you understand why I paste the same sentence again and again.

      I just want to make the issue/curiosity to be more clear, and I’m so sorry for my bad English.

       

    • #47152
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. It is good to make certain about these issues.

      I have revised #9 of the post that you referred to (“Cetasika – Connection to Gati“) as follows:

      9. It is easier to list the six moral cetasika that do not necessarily arise with each kusala cittaThese are the ones that NEED TO BE CULTIVATED with the comprehension of anicca, dukkha, and anatta.

      • They are Sammā Vācā (speech that is conducive to eliminating “san“), Sammā Kammanta (actions that are conducive to eliminating “san“), Sammā Ājiva (a lifestyle that is conducive to eliminating “san“), karunā (“Ariya” compassion), muditā (“Ariya” appreciative joy), and paññā (wisdom) which is the same as Sammā Diṭṭhi.
      • Of course, mundane versions of those are developed to some extent when someone lives one’s life morally, but they will NEVER grow to higher stages until one understands anicca, dukkha, and anatta, at least to some extent. In particular, paññā (wisdom) starts emerging ONLY when one starts grasping anicca, dukkha, and anatta; that happens at an early stage of lokuttara (not mundane) Sammā Diṭṭhi.
      • That is why sammā vācā is not just “good speech,” or sammā kammaṃta is not just “good deeds.” Sammā (“san” + “ma“) means “to remove “san‘,” i.e., done with an understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta; see, “Why is Correct Interpretation of Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta so Important?“.

      I hope that makes it clear. Let me know if anything is not clear. You don’t need to apologize for asking questions.

      P.S. When asking a question about a post, please refer to the bullet number in question. That makes it easier for me to get to it quicker. Otherwise, I have to read the whole post, trying to find the location in the post.

    • #47155
      Samma-ditthi
      Participant

      Thanks for your reply sir!

      I’ll refer to the bullet number in the next question. I apologize for making you search.

      (if you don’t know the keyboard shortcut ‘Ctrl + f’, I suggest using it. It’s good to find a certain word/sentence on the website easily)

      Now I got a sense of the cetasika paññā more clearly.

      Paññā has a very special position in the six sobhanas as it only appears in the beginning lokottara path. (Sotāpanna Anugāmi)

      That means, before becoming Ariya (while in the mundane path), puthujjanō has just mundane Samma Ditthi, not paññā.

      Of course, mundane Samma Ditthi is the base for reaching super mundane Samma Ditthi, but it can’t be considered as ‘paññā’ directly.

    • #47163
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. That is correct.

Viewing 5 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.