How I found out what is real "I" – personal experience

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This topic contains 15 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  vilaskadival 1 year ago.

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  • #17709


    Last month, had good experiences and wanted to share with all of you.

    My friend had a disaster during end of May where his son aged 21 passed away due to a freak accident in Ladakh, Indian Himalayas and I had an opportunity to meet his family and explain and make them experience Buddha Dhamma.

    They are Buddhist following Vajrayana (Mahayana) and was easy to explain to them on Buddha’s teachings – Offcourse, the pure Dhamma.

    While teaching them, I had a profound experience where in I was able to understand the 4 body – Karaja kaya, Utuja kaya, Chittaja kaya and Kammaja Kaya.

    Karaja kaya is the one which keeps on developing as Gandhabba without body and once conceived in the womb of the right mother (matched due to its characteristics and habit pattern, called as “gati”) and starts consuming matter or rupa and in this case ahara or food and starts developing.
    We can see it it action all the time during our life on how we grow. There is always a limitation on the height, weight, color etc., which is defined by the Kamma, but a person can modify certain characteristics by exercising, modifying through plastic surgery which is nothing but changing the gati. This Karaja kaya function is to give a stability as a solid object, while it consist of all the 4 great elements – pathavi, apo, tejo and vayo.

    When we exercise, the body weight reduces and when we stop exercising, it increases. Similarly when each of these elements show it’s characteristics, one can observe. I shall take “pathavi” as an example to show what we can see:

    1. Heaviness – we feel this in our body when food is consumed more. This then affects the chitta which create a pattern of thina and midha
    2. Lightness – when we eat “moderately”, then the body feels light and this gives a mental feeling of “mudita” and “lahuta”
    3. Roughness – All rough things like skin with hairs, soles of feet, etc., and this when charged up in mind, gives a “rough” attitude while dealing with an event
    4. Smoothness – All smooth things like skin without hair, palm etc., and when charged up in mind, gives a “smooth” attitude while dealing with an event
    5. Hardness – All hard things like bones and teeth. When charged up in the mind, will make one to take a very hard outlook towards an event.
    6. Softness – Gums, tip of the tongue, flesh etc., when charged up in the mind will make one to have a soft attitude or outlook towards an event

    Similarly, apo will have flowing and binding nature, tejo will have heat and cold nature, vayo will have expansion and contraction nature within our body and outside the body which is basically chitta.

    Thus, I started deep contemplation of Karaja kaya and found that there would be a profound naana or knowledge which gave me an answer on “what is my type – likes and dislikes”

    Chittaja Kaya – Likes and Dislikes experienced through Karaja kaya gives a stream of thoughts which will have the panchakanda (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana) and there is where in every chitta, “I” exist and “I” keep on doing things which is basically coming form the “gati” or habit pattern I have had in this life or earlier lives.

    I shall cover on the panchakkhanda on how it becomes “upadana” in the next section.

    Kammaja Kaya – Here is the seed of whatever “abhisankhara” is being done by the being and is the producer which is nothing but manifestation of gati through chitta and karaja. Each action taken with the 6 roots (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha) gives it’s own vipaka or fruit of action. Each of these kamma can last for long and generates energy as covered in one of the post in General Section.

    What I found out is that by changing the “gati” or habit pattern, one can change the way “chitta flows” and what rupa is being created and what perception is being had, what feeling is being generated and whether an abhisankahara needs to be performed or not for the vinnana which covers everything up.

    Basically at the sankhara stage, the chitta gets information from the database or namagotta through combination of vinnana and sanna on what that experience should be and through abhisankhara, we predict the outcome, be it liking or disliking.

    So, I started observing the thought pattern and found out the following:

    With Rupa coming into contact with 6 senses, this is what happens:

    1. Sanna becomes the identifier and gives an impression of “I” the perceiver
    2. Vedana becomes the feeler and gives an impression of “I” the feeler
    3. Sankhara becomes the performed and gives an impression of “I” the doer
    4. Vinnana becomes the experiencer and gives an impression of “I” the experiencer

    While I started doing that, the chitta became almost still and was able to see how rupa arises inside and how it appears outside based upon one’s liking (tanha) and how one holds it (upadana)

    Through this, I could understand and experience ajjhatha and bahida in sati-patthana.

    This left a profound experience for me and it made me feel real happiness or cessation of thoughts which did not have any craving, hatred and I was able to penetrate on actual happening which means free from moha.

    To see it in operation, started a step by step approach as listed below:

    1. Comprehending of 4 noble truths – using breathing, body movements, thoughts, events etc., as an object of contemplation.

    Arising of breath – what kind of chitta I’m having. Reflecting to Chittanupassana – Raga, Dosa, Moha, Viraga, Adosa and Amoha. This connects directly to Dhamma as it will hae Kamachandha, Vyapada etc.,

    Tithi – The breath stays for a little bit of time before it goes out (bhanga). Thus, the pattern can be vividly seen on whether it is hard, smooth, light, heavy etc., of pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo filled with any of the contamitants based upon one’s habit pattern or liking/dislike

    Same is the case of body movements, eating, resting, sitting position etc., as we can see in each of these, 4 noble truth of – dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, nirodhagamini and thus seeing in essence “anichcha” – “anaththa” (not as per one’s will and also the being cannot control)

    This helped me in seeing uppada (arising), tithi (staying for sometime) and bhanga (dissolution). Also cleared the experience of udaya-vyaya gnana which is covered in one of the post by Lal.

    1. Straightening of views – Samma Ditti and that has lead me to Samma Vacca, Kammanta and Ajeeva

      Reducing of tendency to commit any one of dasa akusala. Whenever, it comes up, able to see why it is coming and after watching it, able to see it collapse

      What is the driving force – Gati, Chitta and Kamma. Depending upon what is appearing as Pancha Nivarna (kamachanda, vyapada, thina & midha, uddacca & kukkucha and vicikiccha) what is being driven as thoughts – Raga, Dvesha or Moha. Watching and contemplating able to see how the 5 khandas project it and shows that “I” being suffering or enjoying

      Contemplating on 5 Khandas – Watching the Rupas like an image pass-by and how perception leads it, feeling starts and abhisankhara taking action for the enjoyer which is vinnana which is already corrupted due to iccha.

    Thus, with this approach, the dasa akusala is not coming as the chitta and cetasika do not hold them any longer and have lost the “self view” and that is what was causing creation of dasa akusala.

    I could still go on elaborating, but will wait for comments before adding further more details.

  • #17716


    Thank you, Vilas, for sharing your experience. It is apparent that you have spent time contemplating on some key issues.

    You said, “What I found out is that by changing the “gati” or habit pattern, one can change the way “chitta flows” and what rupa is being created and what perception is being had, what feeling is being generated and whether an abhisankahara needs to be performed”
    That is a key point. And those gati are changed permanently at each stage of magga phala.

    As you explain in the rest of the post, “I” that arises depends on the arammana (thought object) and one’s gati.
    This is why there is no “unchanging self”. But since gati come into play, one cannot say that there is “no-self” either. Until one gets to the Arahant stage (i.e., until one’s gati are removed), there is a “perception of a self”. This is the key that many people have a hard time understanding.

  • #17718

    Tobias G

    Hello Vilaskadival,

    we share the same observations. This seeing of the pancakkhandha is not easy to explain. Actually without this experience one will not understand the self-perception and how this can arise and pass away. The Buddha gave the perfect tool to make this clear. Thank you!

    Can you please tell what is ajjhatha and bahida?

  • #17719


    Ajjhata means internal and bahida is external.

    Meaning, through seeing rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana through kaya, vedana, chitta and dhamma, once can see how the internal rupa and 4 kandas become upadana or holding on and comparing it with external.

    This is where, we get into desire to possess more when it matches and reject those which do not match our internal khandas.

  • #17721


    I must add that some people may not see the reasoning explained this way, i.e, to see the anatta nature.

    Many people start comprehending anicca nature first. So, no one should be discouraged if this does not seem to be the way they are understanding Tilakkhana.

  • #18017


    Vilas (vilaskadival) sent me the desana that he recorded. I encourage everyone to listen to it. He welcomes any comments.

    Vilas-August 8 2018 Desana

  • #18018

    Tobias G

    Who is giving the desana?

  • #18019


    During April 2018, had got an opportunity to discuss Dhamma in Sri Lanka and then Thero’s there requested me to share experiences and Pure Dhamma to people outside Sri Lanka through YouTube and Skype.

    Have been sharing my experiences with Lal for sometime now and based upon his suggestion, shared some of it in Forum.

    Then, while discussing with Lal again, he wanted me to share many more experiences I’ve been having in forum and then I requested him whether the desana can be shared in the forum which I’ve got this opportunity to deliver week after week since April 2018.

    Accordingly, sharing one of the desana of 8th August and have been doing Desana relating to Girimananda Sutta and how one can see all the aspects and reach towards liberation from raga, dvesha and moha thus clearing the path to perfection.

    Request forum members to listen to this desana and let me know your views or comments and would be happy to discuss.

  • #18080

    Tobias G

    Thank you Vilaskadival for the desana! Again your analysis is very clear in explaining how we perceive the world and based on that how we act according to the gathi. I will listen to the desana again and also recommend it to some of my friends.

    Would be good to have the link to the Girimananda Sutta. What are you chanting at the beginning (in Pali?)?

  • #18097


    Very grateful to Buddha Dhamma and glad that you find it appropriate.

    Here is the link to Girimananda Sutta

    I’m chanting Gatha or Prayer to Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha plus calling all beings to participate in hearing Buddha teachings and attain phala samapatti.

    I’ve been doing discourse for last few weeks on Girimananda Sutta and would be glad to share the link of YouTube videos were you can listen to them and also participate in the desana which is done on Skype.

    Lal, can I share the video link so that people can benefit from Girimananda Sutta of Dasa Sanna.

  • #18103


    Yes, Vilas.

  • #18104


    Dear Tobias,

    Here is the link to Girimananda Sutta Desana on YouTube

    29th Aug – Asubha Sanna –
    22nd Aug – Asubha Sanna –
    15th Aug – Anatta Sanna –

    Do let me know if you are also interested in joining the desana held every Wednesday, 6:30 PM Sri Lanka / India time. The organiser could send you the link on Skype where you can login

  • #18105

    Tobias G

    Hi Vilas,
    thank you for the links. I will definitely listen all desana.
    Also thank you for the invitation to the desana via skype. Unfortuantely I am at my workplace at that time (in Germany). But I guess you will publish them on YouTube.

  • #18391

    Tobias G

    Hi Vilas,
    did you already deliver a desana about anicca sanna?
    Where to find?
    Thank you!

  • #18392


    Anicca Sanna is on 08Aug2018 below.

    Ariya Nissaranaye Maga done by Vilas

    Youtube weblink of Ariya Nissaranaye Maga:

    1. May-09-2018-Dukkha-desana-Vilaskadival ACM24KHz32kbps

    Audio only:

    2. May-23-2018-Dukkha-desana-Vilaskadival ACM24KHz32kbps
    What is Dukkha?

    Audio only:

    3. Jun-06-2018-Anatta-desana-Vilaskadival ACM24KHz32kbps
    What is Anatta?

    Audio only:

    4. Jul-18-2018-Jati-desana-Vilaskadival ACM24KHz32kbps
    What is Birth of a Condition or Jati?

    Audio only:

    Body, mind, four great elements and five agregates
    Audio only:

    Five agregates and contamination of thought
    Audio only:

    Anicca Sanna of Girimananda Sutta 1:08:04
    Audio only:

    Anatta Sanna of Girimananda Sutta 1:44:05
    Audio only:

    Asubha Sanna of Girimananda Sutta 1:26:38
    Audio only:

    Asubha Sanna of Girimananda Sutta 1:36:13

    Audio only:

    Girimananda Sutta – Asubha Sanna 1:13:07
    07. Sep-05-2018-Asubha-Sanna-desana-Vilaskadival ACM24KHz32kbps
    Audio only:

    Girimananda Sutta – Adeenava Sanna 1:23:33
    08. Sep-12-2018-Adinava-Sanna-desana-Vilaskadival ACM24KHz32kbps

  • #18452


    Continuation of Girimananda Sutta – Adeenava Sanna

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