Getting rid of ‘Sakkaya Ditthi’ via “dassanā pahātabbā”

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    • #32340

      Removal by clear vision (“dassanā pahātabbā,” where dassana is vision and pahātabbā is removal).
      How can a layman (puthugjana) get this clear vision to get rid of ‘Sakkaya Ditti’?

      Please explain to me

    • #32343

      Hello Chan,

      What you are asking is to explain the basis of Buddha Dhamma. That cannot be done in a reply in a discussion forum.

      However, I can point you in the right direction.
      – First, I need to know how much exposure you have had to Buddha Dhamma. Please provide a brief description.

      Here are some points I would like you to address:
      – Are you a practicing Buddhist or have no idea of what Buddhism is?
      – Do you believe in rebirth?
      – Do you know what the ten wrong views (miccha ditthi) are?
      – Have you read any sections on the pure dhamma website? If so, which ones? Any comments on what you have read may help me get an idea of your current understanding.

    • #32361

      Hello Mr.Lal
      Thank you so much for your response.

      Just to make a self introduction.
      I am a 71 years old Sri Lankan Buddhist. My Name is Chandraratne Gunawardena. My home town is Kurunegala. I am a chartered computer professional with 38 years of experience in the field ICT. I followed the NDT course in Mechanical Engineering at Katubedde Campus, then followed a Diploma in Computer System Design at NIBM and hold an M.Sc in IT from UCSC University of Colombo. I have held many different responsible positions in the field of ICT locally and overseas (England , Australia…). I am still working as the Head of Engineering at Informatics Private Limited, Colombo.

      – First, I need to know how much exposure you have had to Buddha Dhamma. Please provide a brief description.
      During the last 10 years, I have studied Buddha Dhamma by reading books specifically books of Ven Rerukane Chandawimala Thera, and listening to live & recorded discourses on radio, TV and Youtube channels, and browsing Internet specifically Pure Dhamma site. I also share my knowledge with my friends of whom majority are retired engineers.

      – Are you a practicing Buddhist or have no idea of what Buddhism is?
      Yes I am a practicing Buddhist

      – Do you know what the ten wrong views (miccha ditthi) are?
      Yes I do

      – Have you read any sections on the pure dhamma website? If so, which ones? Any comments on what you have read may help me get an idea of your current understanding

      I read so many sections, Almost all under Abhidhamma, Patichcha sumuppada, Dhamma and Science , Buddha Dhamma etc. I have no comments on your posts other than to say that they are absolutely explanatory and always tally with Thripitaka.

      It is a pleasure to chat with a person like you with such a vast knowledge in Buddhism.
      I would like to have a live chat with you via Skype, Google Hangout or Zoom so that I can explain to you, a few gray areas that I have.

      Thank you
      Budu saranai

    • #32362

      Hello Chan,

      Good. I have a fairly good idea. It seems that you are well-versed with the fundamentals.

      I get many requests for phone/Skype chats. Unfortunately, I do not have enough time in a day.

      But I will think about a way to get you to look at the issue of “getting to Samma Ditthi” maybe from a bit different perspective. It may take a day or two, but I will post some suggestions here.

      In the meantime, I wonder whether you have read posts in the new section that I started recently;
      Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach
      – It is a different approach and could be appealing to someone with a technical/scientific background like yourself.

    • #32372

      It is important to focus on the main issues. Since you seem to be familiar with the fundamentals, I will briefly go through the main points.

      1. The “suffering” that the Buddha wanted to remove is the suffering in future lives. The root causes for that suffering is described by the Paticca Samuppada (PS) process.
      2. Any future birth (jati) results from bhava (existence) grasped by upadana (the tendency to attach to vedana).
      3. ALL such future births (even in the highest Deva/Brahma realms) end up with varying degrees of suffering. Death is one part of that which can NEVER be avoided in ANY birth.

      Now we can see the origin of that suffering by looking at the beginning of the PS process.

      4. Seeds for new bhava/jati are created by one’s mind with vinnana. There are two types of vinnana. Cakkhu vinnana, sota vinnana, etc DO NOT generate such kamma bija or seeds. It is the vinnana arising via the “sankhara paccaya vinnana” step in the PS process that creates kamma bija in javana citta. We can call this “kamma vinnana“.
      5. Sankhara are our DEFILED thoughts. All three types (mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara) can lead to kamma vinnana. Our speech and actions are also based on our thoughts, and ALL are sankhara. Those that lead to future bhava and jati are strong sankhara or abhisankhara.
      6. Why do generate such sankhara? We do that while we engage in “seeking pleasures” from worldly things (rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phottabba). But how can that lead to suffering? This is the key point that most people are unable to grasp.
      – First, while we are seeking such sensory pleasures, we may engage in immoral deeds (some people think they can avoid them, but it is only a matter of time until one encounters an irresistible arammana). This is why we often hear about “good, moral people) getting caught in taking bribes, raping, or some other sexual misconduct.
      – Second, as long as one has craving for “pleasures” available in kama, rupa, and arupa loka, one WILL be born in one of those. If one has craving for food (or other sense pleasures), it is not possible to avoid births in the kama loka. If one likes to enjoy rupavacara jhana, it is NOT possible to avoid birts in one of the 16 realms in rupa loka. Same for arupavacara jhana.

      7. That is what we discussed in #1. As long as there is a birth (jati) in this world, there WILL BE suffering. The PS process starts with avijja and ends in “soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, etc. WITHOUT exception. Even if one is born in the highest Brahma realm, that life will end at some point (i.e., invariably encounter death). Furthermore, one can then be born in any lower realm including the apayas.
      – Not understanding THAT is avijja.
      – That is why the PS process starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara.” One generates (abhi)sankhara and engage in “pleasure-seeking” (regardless of whether they involve sensual pleasures or jhanic pleasures) because one has NOT understood that process.

      We can discuss the details if you or anyone else has questions. But that is the basic framework.

    • #32382

      Thank you for your response that explains briefly the PS process.
      I will come back with a couple of clarifications soon.

    • #32426

      The following is an excerpt from page 29 of Neththiprakaranaya.
      There are two fields in which fetters can be eradicated; namely the field of vision (දර්ශන භූමිය) and the field of meditation (භාවනා භූමිය). The first three fetters namely Sakkayaditti, Vichichicha and Seelabbathaparamasa can be eradicated in the field of vision. Through meditation, Kamachchanda, Vyapada, Ruparaaga, Aruparaaga, Maana, Udhdhachcha, and Avijjaa can be eradicated.
      Does this mean that you do not need to meditate to become a Sothapanna?
      Sabbasawa Sutta says that Ditti Asawa can be eradicated via clear vision (දස්සනා පහාතබ්බං).
      Please explain how to get to the field of vision (දර්ශන භූමිය) or the clear vision in order to get rid of first three fetters.
      Secondly, it is said the conjectual knowledge (අනුමාන ඥානය) is not adequate to get rid of ditti asawa and that one needs to have a perceptual knowledge (ප්‍රත්‍යක්ෂ ඥානය) such as නාම රූප පරිච්ජේද ඥානය gained via vipassanaa meditation. Appreciate if you could elaborate on this as well.

      Theruwan saranai.

    • #32427

      Yes. This is at the heart of the issue of what is involved in becoming a Sotapanna.

      “Does this mean that you do not need to meditate to become a Sothapanna?”

      “Meditation” could mean two things.
      – One is to contemplate on the “previously unheard Buddha Dhamma that one heard from an Ariya.” This is to dispel one’s wrong views that worldly things can bring happiness. Note that this wrong view is what is left AFTER one has removed the “ten types of wrong views“. One gets to the mundane Samma Ditthi by removing the ten types of wrong views. One gets to Lokottara Samma Ditthi by starting to see the dangers of sense pleasures (seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta). This is the field of vision (දර්ශන භූමිය)
      – The other (and more formal meaning) is the effort that needs to be made to get rid of the WRONG PERCEPTIONS about sense pleasures. A Sotapanna, who has irradicated Sakkayaditthi, Vicikicca and Silabbataparamasa in the step above, still craves sense pleasures due to “viparita sanna” or wrong perceptions. To get rid of that, a Sotapanna needs to contemplate the bad consequences (adinava) of sense pleasures. This is what you referred to as the field of meditation (භාවනා භූමිය). That is how a Sotapanna gets to the Sakadagami and Anagami stages. The tendency to prioritize “sense pleasures” goes away only at the Anagami stage, i.e., kama raga anusaya is reduced at the Sotapanna, and Sakadagami stages, but goes away only at the Anagami stage.

      Now, let us go through this step-by-step.

      One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami when he/she starts comprehending the “previously unheard Buddha Dhamma” that sense pleasures have dangerous consequences. The key point here is that until one comprehends the fruitlessness AND dangers in not KNOWING the following: Even though an average human thinks that sense pleasures cannot bring harm as long as one leads a moral life, that assumption is wrong.
      – This grasping involves a change in the paradigm of one’s world view.
      – This is why the Buddha said his Buddha Dhamma has never been known to the world in the absence of a Buddha Sasana.

      Once one starts comprehending that key point, one is a Sotapanna Anugami, i.e., he/she is one the way (magga) to become a Sotapanna.
      – When he/she starts contemplating on this “new vision” of the reality of the wider world of 31 realms with rebirths taking place incessantly (without stop), one will start seeing more and more evidence that it is the correct world view.
      – There comes a moment when that conviction becomes irreversible. At that moment, the path to the Sotapanna stage is complete and a magga citta followed by two phala citta flow in one’s mind, and one becomes a Sotapanna.

      In other words, a Sotapanna Anugami has conjectural knowledge (අනුමාන ඥානය). He/she has at least a vague idea that this “previously unheard Dhamma” is correct.

      A Sotapanna has perceptual knowledge (ප්‍රත්‍යක්ෂ ඥානය or paccavekkha ñāṇa). He/she KNOWS how birth in any realm arises via the cultivation of a certain set of sankhara. That means he/she understands how the Paticca Samuppada process starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara” leads to a certain existence (bhava) and thus to births (jati) within that bhava. ALL SUCH BIRTHS end up with “jara, marana, soka,…” or the “whole mass of suffering”.
      – Until that moment, Sotapanna Anugami has conjectural knowledge (අනුමාන ඥානය).
      – However, the Buddha stated that a Sotapanna Anugami WILL become a Sotapanna without exceptions. He/she WILL NOT separate from the Ariya birth. That is what is meant by the Tipitaka statements that say “a Sotapanna Anugami WILL NOT die without becoming a Sotapanna.” That refers to “death from the Ariya birth.”

      If there are questions, please quote from above (regarding what is not clear) when asking questions. That way, I will know exactly what is not clear.

      P.S. Of course, there are more details. If you (or anyone else) understand the above but need further clarification regarding a certain point, please feel free to ask too.

    • #32429

      Thank you for your detailed post.
      I need a bit more time to go through your post to bring up clarifications if any.

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