GANDHABBA – 1 or 2 pieces are missing in (my) puzzle

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    • #29230
      Yeos
      Participant

      Hi all

      Despite everything I already read here about manomaya kaya/gandhabba, there is a part of the process that i still don’t understand, as follows:
      – In the case of a current rebirth the manomaya kaya of a human adult “descends” into a womb then merges with the zygote etc. Then some months later (summing up a lot) there will be a baby…how does the manomaya kaya/karmic body sees the world through the eyes of a baby?! It must be a terrible thing to be in this world in the body of a baby after having accumulated experiences + a specific gati etc… ???

      – Second question: it is said that “there is a nervous system in the gandhabba that overlays the physical nervous system.” Is there in the Tipitaka any other info describing what constitutes such nervous system? Something similar to “ida, pingala and sushumna” ?

      Thank you

    • #29237
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yeos asked: “how does the manomaya kaya/karmic body sees the world through the eyes of a baby?”

      Yes. One can think of as the gandhabba “trapped inside the physical body.”

      All external sensory inputs come through the “doors” in the physical body. Vision comes through the eyes, sounds come through the ears, etc.
      – Then those signals are processed by the brain and transmitted to the gandhabba inside.
      – That is a simple explanation. For details one needs to read the following posts:
      Our Mental Body – Gandhabba“; see #8 specifically.
      Clarification of “Mental Body” and “Physical Body” – Different Types of “Kāya”

      “Second question: it is said that “there is a nervous system in the gandhabba that overlays the physical nervous system.” Is there in the Tipitaka any other info describing what constitutes such nervous system?”

      The Tipitaka may not have direct references to everything. We can figure out some things on our own. But the key references to gandhabba in the Tipitaka are at:
      Gandhabba State – Evidence from Tipiṭaka

    • #29242
      Lvalio
      Participant

      The Manomaya Kaya didin´t see anything, because the Brain of a baby it´s not developed enough yet for him to experience the world around him… It takes 7 (seven) years for the brain to achieve a degree of development capable of realizing and judging the world around it, with rare exceptions.
      But after those seven years the brain needs to experience the world before it starts judging it. So, we can say that a reasonable age for a person to become a Buddhist is 12 years. Before that it is very unlikely…
      Think about the brain of an adult who suffered a severe brain injury, that the person has been disconnected from the outside world, she has no idea and will not even remember anything about it in the future…

    • #29248
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Lvalio wrote: “It takes 7 (seven) years for the brain to achieve a degree of development capable of realizing and judging the world around it, with rare exceptions.
      But after those seven years, the brain needs to experience the world before it starts judging it. So, we can say that a reasonable age for a person to become a Buddhist is 12 years..”

      Actually, there is an account in the Tipitaka where a seven-year-old attained Arahanthood. I don’t remember the name of the sutta.

    • #29249
      Lvalio
      Participant

      Yes it is true. And exactly because of that story i put too:”with rare exceptions.”

    • #29253
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The following comment was by y not.
      When I tried to add the link, the post disappeared. Luckily, I kept a copy.

      Googled ‘Arahant at 7 years old’ and got this for starts. I do not know whether there is more.

      Sopāka (2nd) thag7.4:

      At seven years old
      I received ordination.
      I bear my final body—
      oh, the excellence of the teaching!

      And this:

      thag6.10 Sumana (2nd):

      I was only seven years old
      and had just gone forth..
      “he is Anuruddha’s novice,
      assured in psychic powers.
      Made a thoroughbred by a thoroughbred,
      made good by the good,
      educated and trained by Anuruddha,
      who has completed his task”…
      Having attained ultimate peace
      and witnessed the unshakable,
      that novice Sumana has the wish:
      ‘May no-one find me out!

      P.S. I just added the links to the references that y not provided.
      Thank you, y not!

    • #29257
      y not
      Participant

      Thank you Lal,

      I would love to provide the links myself, sparing you the trouble, among other things. But I am unable. And this has been on-going. Only once did I succeed and I do not know what it was that I did differently that time. I DID read the instructions….still.

      So, thanks.

    • #29261
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Not a problem, y not!

    • #29264
      Lvalio
      Participant

      Hi All:
      The first Link: Sopāka (2nd) thag7.4:
      does not work…But the second:
      thag6.10 Sumana (2nd):
      works very well.
      Thank you very much, Y Not for your post.
      I appreciate if you may correct the Link above.
      Thank you very much Lal, as Always…
      Be the blessings of the Buddha, dhamma and Samgha be with you always!
      Lair

    • #29265
      y not
      Participant

      Go the long way, Lair:

      Suttas, Minor, Khuddakanikaya, TherAgata, 7 Sattakanipata, Thag 7.4 Sopaka (2nd).

      I am sorry I cannot do better.

      May you attain the eternal Bliss

    • #29266
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Here is the link:
      7.4. Sopāka

    • #29268
      Lvalio
      Participant

      Yes, I indeed found the link by folow the words of Y not. But your link, works well. Thank you Lal, again…

    • #29386
      Lvalio
      Participant

      Thank you Y not for the informative way. It works very well…Sorry, Forgive me because I didn’t thank you too for your valuable information.

    • #29391
      y not
      Participant

      It’s nothing, Lair. Don’t mention it.

      I gave that sequence only just to ‘fill the gap’ until Lal provides the direct link that works, having been alerted by yourself that his first did not. Which in fact he did.

    • #29619
      Yeos
      Participant

      Thanks to all yet my question wasn’t exactly about that…and by the way i can feel that the Gandhabba is not a fantasy, that is, as one commonly says : I BELIEVE IN ITS EXISTENCE. As for the exceptional case of the arhantship at 7 years old, well, it’s an…exception.

      My question is about the contradiction/trouble (well I see it as a trouble) between all the experience(s) collected by a gandhabba and the fact that once in a new baby body, that very same gandhabba can’t express itself fully; there it is, with all its memories and “knowledges” and learned languages yet reduced to silence or almost, trapped in a brain and in a body that will limit its expression for years and years…

      What a traumatic experience,lots of Dukkha, it’s the case to say…

    • #29625
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes, Yeos. It is part of the dukkha.

      Until the brain of a baby develops, a baby cannot express itself fully.
      – The full development of the brain takes seven years (also according modern science). That is why the minimum age to be an Arahant is seven years.

      • #29738
        Yeos
        Participant

        So logically there will be less dukkha in a case where the gandhabba is the one of a deceased child, one who was not more than 7 years old…

    • #29741
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Any dukkha experienced by a gandhabba is much less compared to the suffering in the four lower realms in the long run (in the rebirth process.)

      • #29846
        Yeos
        Participant

        Lal,

        Certainly…As far as I understood the mental body of a human bhava can degenerate and reborn into an animal bhava let’s suppose an eagle or a tiger,because of lack of merits…?

    • #29849
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yeos: Lack of merits can affect such an outcome directly or indirectly.

      One may be born in a lower realm due to a lack of strong good merits (or having too many bad ones). Then one will be unable to learn Dhamma.
      – That is why the Buddha ALWAYS encouraged doing punna kamma. That will NEVER go to waste.

      Merits due to engaging in punna kamma (giving, helping others etc.) helps one get a human life with enough comforts to be able to learn and practice Dhamma.
      – Even if one is born a human, one may not be able to learn and practice Buddha Dhamma if one is born to poverty, for example.
      – Engaging in punna kamma also helps one setup the necessary mindset to absorb Dhamma (even for one who is born with necessary comforts).

    • #31173
      Mahendran
      Participant

      “……Otherwise, a matching gandhabba with gati that are a mix of gati of mother and father will be drawn into the womb. That is why a child is likely to have gati which are a mix of the two parents. That is in addition to having physical features of the parents.”

      Aren’t Our gathi and inherited abilities for certain subject areas such as music, dance,languages, maths etc etc..partly due to the genes of the parents? Does it mean that gandhabba will also contribute to the abilities and the nature of the personality as a whole in addition?

    • #31175
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Mahendran asked: “Aren’t Our gathi and inherited abilities for certain subject areas such as music, dance,languages, maths etc etc..partly due to the genes of the parents?”

      No. It is the other way around.

      Gandhabba had cultivated such gati in previous lives.

      A gandhabba is drawn into a womb that has a zygote which maximizes the possibility of continuing the “gati” of the gandhabba.
      – That zygote has a set of chromosomes, half of which is from the mother and half from the father.
      – But those chromosomes dictate mostly the physical features.
      – Matching of other types of gati is determined by kammic energy.
      – Some physical features as well as “gati” could come from mother or father. Some gati could be just the gati of gandhabba.
      – Once born, that baby’s gati could be changed due to the influence of both mother and father (and others in the family, friends, etc).

      See the first several posts in the section “Origin of Life

      Those posts will answer the following question as a resounding YES: “Does it mean that gandhabba will also contribute to the abilities and the nature of the personality as a whole in addition?”

      Mostly the physical features of the baby will be determined by the chromosomes. Gandhabba has its own gati.
      – But of course, kammic process will try to match gati as well. But that is never going to be even close. Even the mother and father would have different gati. That “matching” would be a very broad overlap.

      It is a complex process. We can only get a rough idea.

    • #31671
      y not
      Participant

      “Actually, there is an account in the Tipitaka where a seven-year-old attained Arahanthood”,
      Lal (April 24, 2020 at 3:48 pm).

      Dhammapada Verse 110
      Samkiccasamanera Vatthu

      Just came across this verse here:

      “With the bhikkhus, there was also a young samanera by the name of SAMKICCA, who was sent along with them by Thera Sariputta. This samanera was only seven years old, but had already attained arahatship”

      (Now it looks it was not just the odd one, though still very rare by all accounts !! )

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