First sight of Gandhabba or Subtle body

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This topic contains 17 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  cubibobi 3 weeks, 4 days ago.

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  • #18128

    vilaskadival
    Participant

    Last week ie., 27th August at Bodhgaya had an very intense and interesting experience which opened up many unkonwn realities and cleared many aspects on Gandhabba as described in post:

    Manomaya Kaya (Gandhabba) and the Physical Body

    While I was in Jhana, was able to see how the manomaya kaya comes out and how it moves around in search of new body, how the gati picks it up from where it has left based upon kammaja kaya which starts its jati progression.

    Accordingly, I was able to see my whole body from top to down on this one. The gandhabba which I saw existing within this body and also of others was of a white sheet just like what we take in X-Ray (the outer white while the skeleton gets exposed) except for the skeleton and bones.

    It is very flexible one and resembles like a comet until the lower back level and there is nothing after that. Also it is slightly illuminated and pulsating. This pulsation I understood to be the utuja kaya and the gandhabba now would smell the external environment and keeps on going here and there in search of new home to start it’s journey into samsara.

    There is also difference among Animal and Human gandhabba or manomaya kaya, while in Human, it would like like comet with head up just like the ghost, but not truly a ghost but just a person without body and no limbs etc., However, was able to see that it has eyes and ears or rather what it seemed to be.

    Due to seeing of this, felt very compassionate to all beings at that moment since all of us are going to end up being that unless sufficient progress is made in understanding anicca, dukkha and anatta and reach higher realms of existence.

    The whole aspect became very clear to me on how all of us will shed this material body or body generated out of food and then become that manomaya kaya to get another layer of material body by taking on loan a mother and father to whom we become indebted in a way to get the matter or food to get this body we currently have and then how at the end of kamma, we again go out of home in search of new home.

    Then I also experienced that there is no point in wasting time in mundane things which does not lead to anything except for searching in samsara for new karaja kaya and instead why don’t I use up my current energy to attain Nibbana

  • #18132

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Very interesting, Vilas.
    Thank you for sharing your experience. Could you explain it in a bit more detail?

    You said: “While I was in Jhana, was able to see how the manomaya kaya comes out and how it moves around in search of new body,..”

    Whose manomaya kaya was that? Humans or animals?

    You said: ” I was able to see my whole body from top to down on this one. The gandhabba which I saw existing within this body and also of others..”

    You saw your own physical body AND that of YOUR gandhabba (manomaya kaya)?

    You said: “There is also difference among Animal and Human gandhabba or manomaya kaya, while in Human, it would like like comet with head up just like the ghost,..”

    Does a human gandhabba resembles a human (in shape or outline), and animal gandhabba its own animal shape?

    I am sure others will appreciate you giving a detailed account at your convenience.

  • #18133

    vilaskadival
    Participant

    Lal said: Whose manomaya kaya was that? Humans or animals?
    It is of human. The manomaya kaya is white in color and looks translucent or hazy or cloudy with eyes and ears as in humans.

    Lal said: You saw your own physical body AND that of YOUR gandhabba (manomaya kaya)?

    After seeing others at the Bodhgaya temple, was able to see how the manomaya kaya in my body looks. It exactly replicates the physical body and all the sense inputs are felt by this body and nothing as such is felt by this material body And that is the reason, the body upon death becomes log of wood and was clear to me.

    Lal said: Does a human gandhabba resembles a human (in shape or outline), and animal gandhabba its own animal shape?

    Yes. Human will look like human and animal accordingly to its body shape except for limbs and hands not fully seen since it will be like a white blanket over a physical body.

  • #18134

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Thank you! Quite consistent.

    One more question. What I meant in my question about seeing your physical body was the following:
    Can you come out of the physical body and see the physical body from above?

  • #18136

    vilaskadival
    Participant

    Lal said: Can you come out of the physical body and see the physical body from above?

    In Bodhgaya, it did not happen but in 1995 I had this experience of coming out of body and could see my body from above. At that time, I had not known what it is and did not have anyone to explain to me.

    Then, over the period, had understood that it is Out of Body Experience.

  • #18138

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Makes sense. It seems you had cultivated jhana and some of these abilities in recent human births.

    That is why you were able to have the OBE in 1995. Several such experiences are discussed in #9 of “Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)“.

  • #18139

    y not
    Participant

    Hello Vilaskadival,

    Thank you for sharing. I find this very interesting, to say the least. However, one thing you said has raised a question, as Lal pointed out:

    “You saw your own physical body AND that of YOUR gandhabba (manomaya kaya)?”

    Does your reply to the effect that “…was able to see how the manomaya kaya in my body looks” then mean: you were seeing both your physical body AND the manomakaya from above. Is that how it was? Because in that case, the question arises: if you were seeing both from above, then who was doing the seeing?

    To illustrate, you say in your last post: ‘ but in 1995 I had this experience of coming out of body and could see my body from above.’ Here it is clear that ‘you’ were, or were in, the manomaya kaya.

    I suspect there is something amiss in the way you are describing it. No offence meant, of course. Can you please clarify?

    Metta

  • #18141

    vilaskadival
    Participant

    y not said: “You saw your own physical body AND that of YOUR gandhabba (manomaya kaya)?”

    Does your reply to the effect that “…was able to see how the manomaya kaya in my body looks” then mean: you were seeing both your physical body AND the manomakaya from above. Is that how it was? Because in that case, the question arises: if you were seeing both from above, then who was doing the seeing?

    I think there is slight confusion here in what was meant and how I’ve explained and excuse me for this confusion.

    Part 1: While in Bodhgaya – Here, I could see the manomaya kaya of everyone in Jhana. After that, I was able to understand how my inner body or gandhabba would looks. I was not out of body at this time, but since the jhana was so strong was able to understand or visualise on how mine would be.

    Part 2: To question of Lal on coming out of body – I had this experience in 1995 when the manomaya kaya was out and it did seem to be very light and in a happy state. Could see the body lying there from above and after that, was in a very calm place from where I did not wanted to return. Then suddenly felt was thrown into something and I fell down from my bed and was perplexed on what happened.

    Reading through material in internet in the year 2000, understood that it is called as “Out of Body experience”

    Hope I could clarify on this one and feel free to ask me further questions.

  • #18142

    y not
    Participant

    “…I was able to understand how my inner body or gandhabba WOULD look. I was not out of body at this time… was able to understand or VISUALIZE on how mine would be.” Capitals mine.

    Alright, Vilas – that settles it. Thank you. I wish I could say I would like to experience this myself, but cannot even say so, because if I were ready for it (like you are) I would have experienced it already – barring, of course, in circumstances when the gandhabba is FORCED OUT as in NDE’s etc.

    Yes I do have a further question, if I may:

    “and it did seem to be very light and in a happy state… was in a very calm place from where I did not want to return!”

    How ‘high up’ were you when you were ‘in that happy state’, do you remember?From that place from where you did not want to return? For gandhabbas restricted to the human plane are not in what may be described a happy state at all; they are craving a human body and envy those in them who are enjoying what they themselves are missing. They do not want to stay there.

    Thank you Vilas,

    much Metta

  • #18143

    vilaskadival
    Participant

    Y not said:How ‘high up’ were you when you were ‘in that happy state’, do you remember?From that place from where you did not want to return?
    For gandhabbas restricted to the human plane are not in what may be described a happy state at all; they are craving a human body and envy those in them who are enjoying what they themselves are missing. They do not want to stay there.

    Well, after a while of out of body, still remember a place which was so peaceful and felt as though this is what I was to be. Don’t know how high up it was, but the place is very vivid even today which is filled with calm and nothing seem to move or change or in motion.

    When I get into jhana now, sometimes, that place seem to get familiar but certainly not the one I had experienced then.

    Hopefully, with cleaning of mental contents, someday that might become reality and guess that is what is called as “nirodha samapatti” state.

    I had been to that place accidentally and with constant clearing of impurities, might reach that place with knowledge instead of just Out of Body.

  • #18147

    Lal
    Keymaster

    We need to realize that gandhabba can have many varieties: human (good and bad), animal (bad) are major types. By “bad”, I mean they have “bad gati” and are likely to “smell bad” if they have dense enough bodies.

    In addition, there are some peta gandhabbas (bad) and deva gandhabbas belonging to the lowest deva realm (good).

    Gandhabbas can inhale and have fairly dense (still mostly unseen by normal humans). Bad gandhabbas inhale “bad odors” of waste and even feces. Good gandhabbas inhale scents of flowers, leaves etc.

    As is the general rule, good gandhabbas are attracted to good environments and bad ones to bad and dirty environments. This makes some dirty environments even more “smelly”. That is one reason why we need to keep our living environments clean.

    So, when one is in the gandhabba state, one can feel really good (like in the case of Vilas). They don’t have the burdens associated with a heavy physical body AND their minds are not burdened with defilements.

    On the other hand, “bad” human gandhabbas (which is the case for even some human gandhabbas) have “smelly bodies” and their minds are defiled too.

    Gandhabba has a bad connotation due to misconceptions. A Brahma‘s body is essentially the body of a gandhabba (without even a trace of the karaja kaya or the physical body). One who cultivates jhana and can come out of the physical body (like Vilas), essentially has a “Brhama body”.
    – When such a person dies, he/she is born in a Brahma realm (unless of course attain Nibbana before death). Even in the case where one has cultivated anariya jhana, the next birth is in a Brahma realm (corresponding to the particular jhana cultivated).
    – But of course, those with anariya jhana come back to the human realm and can be born in the apayas in the future.

    P.S. Those who get to the Anagami stage (i.e., remove kama raga and patigha anusaya) also are born in Brahma realms even if they have not cultivated jhana.

  • #18148

    y not
    Participant

    Thank you Lal;

    I asked Vilas the question because I was asking myself whether he, in that state, was in fact approaching a brahma realm, but had doubts about it because I do not know how a human gandhabba can fit in with the ‘instantaneous opapatika birth’method into such realms (from a human bhava).

    The question itself arose from my having read of a ‘vision’ K.G.Jung had experienced after having suffered a heart attack in 1944. It is found in Chapter X titled .Visions’of his autobiography ‘Memories, Dreams and Reflections’. Other experiences of his mentioned in the same work are equally compelling.

    I reproduce the relevant excerpt in a separate post immediately following so as not to scare readers away from passing over even this one in the process!

    grateful as ever

  • #18151

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Thank you, y not.

    I have deleted your second post where you quoted someone else. That does not add anything useful to the discussion. There are so many “theories” made up by people out there. I just don’t want people to waste time reading those here.

    You had mentioned the source for that quotation above, so anyone interested can look it up there.

  • #18152

    inflib
    Participant

    Hi y not,

    You’re back b/c you’re missing the most important part…the part that has been corrupted over and over again…the One Infinite Creator. Don’t believe me, try it yourself and see how everything changes for the better.

    :)

  • #18153

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Hello Donna,

    People may get confused by your statement on “One Infinite Creator”. Can you elaborate on what you meant? There is no “Creator”; one is one’s own Creator.

    That is the key to Buddha’s message. One creates one’s own bhava (and jati or future births) by doing (abhi)sankhara with ignorance (avijja). That inevitably leads to suffering at the end. Thus one creates one’s own future births and one’s own future suffering.

    That is described in Paticca Samuppada: “avijja paccaya sankhara“…leading to “upadana paccaya bhava” and “bhava paccaya jati“, which in turn leads to suffering: “jati paccaya jara, marana, soka,..”.

    P.S. This is a CRITICAL point. If one is to understand Buddha Dhamma, one needs to understand what is meant by key words like sankhara and vinnana; see, “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa“.

    Donna (inflib) probably knows this, but I just wanted to point it out for the general audience.

  • #18158

    y not
    Participant

    Hello Lal

    I reproduced that quotation by K.G.Jung for ease of access to readers here. It was some one’s experience (not his philosophical theory), apart from it being the experience of none other than arguably the world’s greatest ever psychologist (hence my quoting none other than him) and I know others have posted quotes before and just now flipping through “Buddha Dhamma for an Inquiring Mind” in Questions About Puredhamma Posts Forum I came across the following (dated April 13th)

    “I saw someone commmented in a Youtube video. I shall reproduce his comments here:”
    “Another commenter has much better wisdom:”

    Hence my being prompted to write. I had to interrupt my reading.There will be other instances, but I shall not bother.

    I was only being consistent with that, with what had been accepted before. If now my attitude be again compared to that of a lawyer, I have to remind you (sorry about it) that a lawyer splits hairs only to his own advantage, and will do so to win a case even when he knows perfectly well that his client is in fact guilty. My only aim is that I contribute what I know, so that others may form their own opinion of it. In this particular case, it was to provide a basis for comparison of what Vilas had experienced to that which Jung had.

    ever so grateful

  • #18160

    Lal
    Keymaster

    We are already distracted from the relevant discussion, but I want to make clear why I delete some comments.

    The goal of this website is to uncover the true teachings of the Buddha, based ONLY on the Tipitaka (and the 3 original commentaries included there). I want this site to be a place where people can come and learn true and pure Buddha Dhamma. I do not want these discussions to veer off to philosophical discussions.

    I don’t want even to refer other websites that also are based on Waharaka Thero’s interpretations, because I find that they also have some discrepancies (those are mainly Sinhala websites anyway): “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro“. I do not want to get into a situation where I have to defend their statements on some topics.

    However, I do rely on sound scientific findings to show that Buddha Dhamma is compatible with many of those solid findings. I have pointed out some that are not consistent with Buddha Dhamma, and I have explained why. Time will show that Buddha Dhamma is right, as it has for the past 2600 years.
    – When I say science, I mostly include physical sciences: physics, chemistry, biology, etc. and of course mathematics.
    – Those other branches of science, such as psychology which are related to the human mind, are mostly speculations at this point. Same is true for philosophy: mostly speculations. Buddha has analyzed the mind in great detail, and no psychologist or a philosopher can even come close. To quote them is useless most of the time.

    So, I do welcome any comments on whether what is at the website is inconsistent with the Tipitaka or findings from physical sciences/mathematics. This is why I allow some comments on those areas, and even welcome them.
    – But psychology and philosophy are off limits IF they are not consistent with Buddha Dhamma. As I have pointed out, there are a few psychologists who are using the same methods that the Buddha advised.

    P.S. Once attaining the Buddhahood (perfect mind), a Buddha becomes unequal to any being (human, deva, brahma) in this world: “Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency“.
    – Realizing this happens when one attains a magga phala. Until then it is just “blind faith”. It is called “Buddhe aveccappasada“, or “unbreakable faith in the Buddha, which is based on understanding”, and similarly in Dhamma and Sangha. By the way, Sangha includes only those with magga phala (one of the Eight types of Noble Persons or Ariyas), not bhikkhus.

  • #23575

    cubibobi
    Participant

    Fascinating experience!

    vilaskadival wrote: ” ..Then suddenly felt was thrown into something and I fell down from my bed and was perplexed on what happened.”

    Would that “throwing” be the force of kamma?

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