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I was listening to a desana from the Jethavanarama Buddhist Monastery YouTube channel, and while listening to the desana I was very much focused and started to feel lightness and brightness all of a sudden (not too much but enough to realise something is going on) and then I was feeling to laugh from that lightness , it was for a very short time about a second or two. It happened to me for about 2 times during that session.Was I close to the first Jhana?
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It is hard to say either way until a jhana is cultivated to the extent that one can willfully get into it.
- The Buddha described the jhanic experience of someone fully immersed in jhana. See “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2).”
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I’ve been experiencing something profound lately. When I focus deeply on the Dhamma, I feel an overwhelming sense of calmness and relaxation. Everything around me seems to brighten up.
- As I delve deeper, I’ve started to see myself as a process that cognizes, rather than a fixed ‘me’ or ‘I.’ It’s a strange yet calming feeling.
- However, when I focus too much on the ‘me’ part, I experience fear – it’s as if the self doesn’t want to let go! But when I return to a more normal understanding, the fear subsides.
- My experience isn’t as intense as the jhana feelings people often describe, but it’s related. I feel calm, serene, and connected to the Dhamma.
- Physically, I’ve noticed some interesting sensations – the room seems brighter, I get goosebumps for no reason, and I’ve even felt a slight cold sensation that disappears quickly.
Also, I’ve cried a little when understanding the Dhamma deeply. It’s a feeling that comes and goes.
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What Yash experience is this description :
Obhasa (illumination)
Obhasa is the first defilement of insight.
The meditator may be aware of the following manifestations of light:
He may see a light similar to a firefly, a torch or a car headlamp.
The room may be lit up, enabling the meditator to see his or her own body.
He or she may be aware of light that seems to pass through the wall.
There may be a light enabling one to see various places before one’s eyes.
There may be a bright light as though a door had opened. Some meditators lift up their hands as if to shut it; others open their eyes to see what caused the light.
A vision of brightly colored flowers surrounded by light may be seen.
Miles and miles of sea may be seen.
Rays of light seem to emit from the meditator’s heart and body.
Hallucinations such as seeing an elephant may occur.
Piti (Joy or rapture)
Piti is the second defilement of insight. There are five kinds of piti.
1. Khuddaka piti (minor rapture)
This state is characterized by the following:
The meditator may be aware of a white color.
There may be a feeling of coolness or dizziness and the hairs of the body may stand on end.
The meditator may cry or feel terrified.
2. Khanika piti (momentary rapture)
Characteristics of this piti include:
Seeing flashes of light.
Seeing sparks.
Nervous twitching.
A feeling of stiffness all over the body.
A feeling as if ants were crawling on the body.
A feeling of heat all over the body.
Shivering.
Seeing red colors.
The hair on the body rising slightly.
Itchiness as if ants were crawling on one’s face and body.
See also the Sixteen Types of Insight Knowledge (Vipassana Nana) in Theravada Buddhism
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Yash’s experience seems like a genuine samadhi born out of understanding. Glad to hear your progress.
Yash wrote: “However, when I focus too much on the ‘me’ part, I experience fear – it’s as if the self doesn’t want to let go! But when I return to a more normal understanding, the fear subsides.”
- Yes. That is when the mind’s focus moves away from Nibbana.
The “clarity” will get better with practice. “Nibbana sukha” is not a vedana in mundane terms. It is really a relief from the incessant distress (pilana) of the mind: “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”).”
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I have been experiencing immense fear that also causes my hands and legs to shiver when I am focusing on the “me” part. Yesterday it was so strong that I felt that there’s something problematic with my heart and I felt low bp that I had to rush to the hospital at 3am. They did all the diagnostics but everything was perfect physically. They said that it’s because of anxiety. What should I do? This fear is so strong and it’s acting like a hindrance. I am afraid to even listen to the dhamma. I was not able to sleep at all.
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“I have been experiencing immense fear that also causes my hands and legs to shiver when I am focusing on the “me” part. “
- Why do you focus on “me”? Did the Buddha ever teach that?
- In ultimate reality, there is no “me.” What happens to an Arahant upon death? Was there an “I”? Only the suffering ceased.
- Things happen due to causes and prevailing conditions (Paticca Samuppada.)
- We need to focus on how suffering (pancupadanakkhandha or our experiences) arises. When we understand that, we will realize how to prevent it from arising.
- However, DO NOT start with the idea of “deleting me” either. Just understand how our minds respond to sensory inputs. We focus on how a mind attaches to sensory experiences. There is no need to make it “my mind.”
If you can explain precisely what you meditated on (if that is OK), we may be able to understand what happened.
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The monks of the monastery talk about how Jati is the Dukkha that the Buddha taught about. The mind which is just a process, experiences a self and then that leads to fear, anger,desire,etc. If this feeling is realised then no more suffering.
Another thing I realised that I overthink alot. Whenever I see people of different religions on YouTube talk about how their religion is true and everything else is false and if you don’t follow them, you will be burnt in hell forever. This is about abrahmic religions. These things kind of depress me and make me anxious and I feel like why do they say this? Whats the evidence for their such claims? Then on further research I found how every such religion has found a way to claim that their holy books contain all the scientific verses.
It’s like I have a “fear” of miccha ditthi. But I again go on with understanding the dhamma more and realising that it’s true. But this “fear” along with overthinking causes more problem again.
This overthinking used to happen me many years ago also but on a completely different issue of pornography.
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“Whenever I see people of different religions on YouTube talk about how their religion is true and everything else is false and if you don’t follow them, you will be burnt in hell forever. This is about abrahmic religions. These things kind of depress me and make me anxious and I feel like why do they say this?”
- That is a waste of time and indeed could be the cause of your anxiety.
- People do all sorts of weird things. What is the point of trying to make sense of their actions? How does that help us understand the root cause of suffering? They are already on a wrong path. We already know that, so why worry about it? There is nothing to learn from their activities.
- Even criticizing their actions is foolish. They do things because they believe in them, and there is nothing we can do about that. Such actions on our part can only lead to conflicts and losing our “peace of mind.”
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Thanks. I understand that sir. But it happens automatically. That’s why I also tried to cultivate jhanas along with the dhamma to overcome such nonsense thoughts.
I also have a meeting with a bhikku of the monastery and I will discuss this overthinking and my meditation technique issue with him in detail.
One more question sir, is it possible that we may get confused between nibbana and asanna state? Could you please tell what exactly is an asanna state and how it gets cultivated? I know that the person loses perception but how exactly? I also want to be careful to not get trapped in such meditation stuff mistakenly thinking it to be Nibbana 🙏🏻
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“.. is it possible that we may get confused between nibbana and asanna state?”
- Yes. This is a good question.
- I know some people who got into trouble by trying to “get rid of perceptions” willfully, by force.
- For example, one dangerous technique is to remove all thoughts that come to one’s mind. If this is done for a long time, one could lose memory (and perception, i.e., become asañña). They will even forget to eat or cannot recall where the bathroom is! They are reborn in the “asañña realm.”
- Memory is intrinsically related to perception (saññā). Our goal is not to be fooled by saññā, not to lose saññā! See “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā).” P.S. As we have discussed, Arahants still taste honey to be sweet or a particular woman to be attractive; but their minds are not fooled by such “distorted perceptions.”
- The Buddha said to stop IMMORAL thoughts, not ALL thoughts. There is a big difference between the two. Furthermore, he encouraged cultivating moral thoughts (One interpretation of Anāpāna is “āna” AND “āpāna”; see, “6. Ānāpānasati Bhavana (Introduction)“.
- Many people wrongly advise that one needs to remove ALL THOUGHTS from one’s mind to attain Nibbāna. Once, a Deva expressed the same idea to the Buddha: “Isn’t Nibbāna attained via removing all thoughts?”. The Buddha replied, “No. Nibbāna is realized by removing greedy, hateful, and ignorant thoughts”. That account is in the “Manōnivarana Sutta (SN 1.24).”
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If you experience any fear, anxiety, etc. in your meditation – it means you doing things wrong. What you experienced is not jhana but entry-level of Nibbana or mind getting aligned with Dhamma. Jhana is a very specific state of mind with bliss beyond any physical means. After getting on the proper “way” you started to focus on “me” and stuff like this which probably mixed with wrong views “of no me” and delusion. This is a very dangerous game with your mind. Focus on the core teachings of Dhamma and keep that brightness and lightness often. If you start thinking stupid things like “no me” or “no self” it will create huge problems and mental instability. If you think for example of “money” or “yourself as someone important” or sense pleasure images your body will respond, if you think of “no self” your body and mind will start to crash out as you would bring the wrong “code” to the computer.
If anyone feels anything negative while practicing Dhamma – you are not practicing Dhamma but your delusion. Stick to the teachings, going left or right side will have wrong consequences for your mind.
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We hope you are fully recovered. Please keep us informed of your progress. Consider the incident a temporary roadblock.
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Yes sir I am fine now. There is also a high possibility that it was not because of the dhamma but my anxiety and overthinking. There are some family problems also currently so that could be the reason because I had been meditating the same way before but felt relief and happiness but now anxiety and strong fear. I think it was only because of my personal problems and also not having proper guidance for the meditation.
Thanks
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Yash wrote:
“Another thing I realised that I overthink alot. Whenever I see people of different religions on YouTube talk about how their religion is true and everything else is false and if you don’t follow them, you will be burnt in hell forever. This is about abrahmic religions. These things kind of depress me and make me anxious and I feel like why do they say this? Whats the evidence for their such claims? Then on further research I found how every such religion has found a way to claim that their holy books contain all the scientific verses.”
“I understand that sir. But it happens automatically. That’s why I also tried to cultivate jhanas along with the dhamma to overcome such nonsense thoughts.”
Mind is a machine that runs on views. If you’re annoyed by the things that dogmatic people say, it is a reflection of your mental tendency (gati). Your views influence a subconscious algorithm that will automatically bring a reaction (output) when a corresponding input is provided. In your case, it sounds like your mind is attached with aversion (dosa). From my practice, I think that the only way of combating this issue is through the realization of right views.
Until the eradication of kama raga, we can only be tentative about the deep workings of the world. But we can do our best by carefully examining whatever worldview is presented to us. On the internet, you will find 100 different religion videos that say 100 different things that contradict each other. To list a few examples – “Accept Jesus or rot in hell”, “Believe Allah or die an eternal death”, “Chant Namo Amitabha to enter pure land”, “Hare Ram for good karma”, etc. They all claim that they’re speaking truth, but can they all be right? No, but they can certainly all be wrong. I remember getting into a heated fight with a few Muslims online when they praised the Islamic adultery punishment of 100 lashes. A girl (a minor!) was apprehended and lashed repeatedly and forcefully woken up even after she fainted to make sure that 100 painful lashes were delivered. Those idiots were not only praising such an inhumane action but insisting that they should be strictly enforced into all Islamic countries. I confronted them by asking who the hell are they to decide what a woman should do with her body. What rights do they have to impose their dogmatic beliefs onto others? They responded by trying to defend the authority of the Quran and one of the things that they told me was that it contains many “scientific verses” – one of which provides an accurate description of the human embryo formation. I decided to investigate it, only to end up laughing at their stupidity and mourning for those who have to put up with it.
“Man We did create from a quintessence of clay. Then we placed him as a drop of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood. Then out of that clot We made a fetus lump. Then We made out of that lump bones, and clothed the bones with flesh. Then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best to create!” (23:12-14)
Religious people like to twist their interpretations to pretend that their holy books contain “scientific verses”. But do you think the above is even remotely similar to how embryogenesis actually works? Every single sentence above has an error.
“Man We did create from a quintessence of clay.”
A clay is primarily made up of inorganic compounds like silica and alumina, but a human body is primarily made up of organic compounds and water.
“Then we placed him as a drop of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed.”
A sperm cell continues to move until it fertilizes with the ovum, after which a zygote is formed and the sperm cell practically disappears. There is no “resting” for a “drop of sperm” and it is certainly not “firmly fixed”.
“Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood.”
A zygote is formed by the coitus of the parents, during which the mother must be in season. In other words, there can’t be an embryo without the ovum but this crucial aspect is not even mentioned.
“Then out of that clot We made a fetus lump.”
A blood clot is a gel-like mass that is formed in the blood at the site of an injury, primarily to seal further blood loss. An embryo is not a “clot”. It is a multicellular organism that continually grows.
“Then We made out of that lump bones, and clothed the bones with flesh.”
The skeletal system forms gradually in 2 ways – Intramembranous ossification and Endochondral ossification. This process continues throughout the fetal life so it makes no sense to say that a lump of bones was created and stitched with the flesh.
“Then We developed out of it another creature.”
Embryogenesis shows that an embryo goes through 20 different stages within the first 23 days. Based on that, it is different at each stage, so what the hell does “another creature” mean?
“So blessed be Allah, the Best to create!”
Lol! Pregnancy is an utterly stressful process that puts the mother and the baby through insane risks and suffering. Even an accidental point mutation can have a devastating consequence. Some are even raped and forced into pregnancy (that includes children). And it is not just humans that get pregnant, animals do too and their suffering is even worse as they also need to bear with the risk of predators. So I DO NOT understand how anyone can be ignorant enough to think that this process is worthy of any praise.
This is just one example. The so-called holy books of the worldly religions are frequently littered with scientific errors like “earth being created before the stars and that they can fall from the heaven, disease caused due to demons, usage of geocentric model, implication of 6000 years old earth, etc.” (of course, I am talking about Abrahamic religions here but it’s not limited to that). A common excuse is asserting that they’re “metaphors” meant not to be taken literally. When the claims are factually false, they’re metaphors but when they’re somewhat right, they’re “scientific verses”. That is their hypocrisy.
I didn’t do the above analysis to waste anyone’s time but to attempt to provide some insights because I myself have gone through similar experience. I can’t control what other people do. But what frustrates me the most is that the mere existence of these people “blocks” the path of many others who could have the potential to comprehend the profound teachings of Buddha. A good example is the emerging studies of “Near Death Experiences” which is often discarded without a second thought by even the most well known scientists like Richard Dawkins and Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Any implication of the word “supernatural” can generate discomfort in many bright minds today because they are aware of how nonsensical the worldly religions are, and the last thing you’d wanna do is associate with zealots.
It is an absolute mess and I have personally given up on trying to fix any of it. I can’t change others but I can certainly work on changing myself. There is a very specific reason why a Bhikkhu gives up the lay life and fully embraces the monastic life. Detaching from the worldly mess is an important part of the process.
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Yes Taryal! This is my exact situation!
Such religions do such extreme and nonsense things and on top of that claim it to be true. One more such thing that Islam tells is that the women must wear burkha as a woman’s body ignites Lust in men.
Even their prophet suffered from lust! He had sex with 9 of his wives in the same night!
This clearly shows that these religions don’t know the truth. A woman’s body even if naked, has no potential of generating lust unless the receivers mind has the same gati. Can a hungry lion generate lust towards the same woman as it has in a man? Not at all! The lion would see that body as a meal.
They don’t know these basic things. Same for christianity, people yell on streets and say “Follow Jesus or suffer in Hell”.
These things were and are issues that kind of depressed me. But the only solution is to dive more and more into the truth analysing all the statements of the Dhamma and convince the mind of the truth by providing immense evidences.
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People who wrote those “holy books” had no clue about “distorted perception” so instead of pointing out the delusions of the mind, they blame the women instead. Little did the so-called “prophet” know that an anagami could be swarmed by naked women and not generate a trace of lust.
But like mentioned above, dwelling over such bastards-led farce is a waste of time and would only contribute to further agitating our minds. To be bothered less by such worldly issues, we have to create the environment that’ll help trigger the meritorious causes, which can be done by listening, reading, and practicing Dhamma. I strongly suggest attending online personal Dhamma talks with the monks at Jethavanarama as much as possible. We can use our time to do beneficial things instead. That’s what we have control over!
Additionally, if you’re interested in a philosophy that’ll help you be more resilient in your lay life, I also recommend Stoicism.
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If Buddha Dhamma increases your hatred towards non-Buddhists you are no better than all these radicals. You will have to watch your language for the sake of the forum and your own good. I am not one to tell anyone what to do, but the forum will become more and more toxic if we do not denounce this type of degrading and anti-Dhamma behaviour.
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“People who wrote those “holy books” had no clue about “distorted perception” so instead of pointing out the delusions of the mind, they blame the women instead. Little did the so-called “prophet” know that an anagami could be swarmed by naked women and not generate a trace of lust.”
- One thing I notice on this forum, some insult other religions as idiots and imbeciles. This is a wrong speech and, therefore, an Akusala Kamma. You accumulate demerit no matter the target of your insult.
- I see a lot of hatred towards non-Buddhist religions. My question to you is how will this advance you towards Nibbāna?? Do you know that Puredhamma is public on the internet? If non-Buddhists like Muslims and Christians come to this site to learn the Dhamma and see that you insult their religion what will they think?? I find it dangerous because this kind of behaviour will scare away people who could have had the merit to understand the articles on this site. Your rhetoric is the same that the Buddhist radicals in Sri Lanka and Burma use to hate non-Buddhists. Your own path to Nibbāna will be blocked. What do you know about Jesus and Muhammad?? I know that many Indians and Nepalese have hatred towards everything related to Islam and Arabs. How will this hatred lead you to Nibbāna?! I understand that according to Buddha Dhamma, they are wrong, but can you say with certainty that you are free from micchādiṭṭhi and that you are sotāpanna??!
The Buddha Dhamma is indeed the ultimate and supreme truth of nature. Nothing and no one can reach the infinite wisdom of a Lord Buddha. Even an arahant cannot completely describe a Lord Buddha. Only another SammāsamBuddha is capable of doing so. I had read somewhere that even a Maha Kappa would not be enough for a SammāsamBuddha to describe another. One can only accept this with faith, wisdom and the practice of Dhamma. However, if the ultimate truth, that is, the Dhamma, has been twisted, do you think that other religions are free from misinterpretation??? Islam is 1400 years old and Christianity is 2000 years old. The Buddha Dhamma is 2500-2600 years old. The distortion of the Dhamma happened only less than 500 years after the Parinibbāna of Lord Buddha. In 2000 years and 1400 years, many things can change, and the truth can be distorted. I sincerely believe that Islam today and Christianity today have lost their real meaning. Why do I think this? Jethavaranama Monastery said something that shocked me during a sermon. Most Venerable Bhante Nivanthapa Thero (Abbot of the monastery) told the audience, “Give me the bible, the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita, and I will show you Nibbāna.”
- That is why a large majority of Jethavaranama’s audience are non-Buddhists. Many Christians and Muslims come to their sermon in Colombo. They enjoy their sermon and come back again and again. Their detractors are other Buddhists who do not agree with their interpretation of Tilakkhana. You want to know why they are successful? They have a quality that many Buddhists today seem to lack; Metta loving-kindness and Karuna compassion. Many Buddhists today want to have an academic knowledge of the Dhamma and delude themselves about their level on the path. They teach the Dhamma coldly and arrogantly. I admit I am like that. I have learned that one must put aside this arrogance and be a listener. Bhante Maitri (Daniel St) told me that Bhante Amadassana Thero can attract many non-Buddhists to the Dhamma with his loving-kindness. He radiates great loving-kindness. In the monastery, they have Bible and other religious book classes to show elements of the Dhamma to the non-Buddhist.
Calling people idiots, bastards and saying that they have lived their lives in lies does not help at all. In this Samsāra, we have all been idiots. The worst is that you develop a demerit. One important thing everyone has to start somewhere and do not forget that all these religious leaders Jesus, Prophet Muhammad can be Bodhisattas. Most Venerable Waharaka Thero said that Jesus came to him when he was in meditation. Of course, everyone can doubt but, what is certain is that a bodhisatta starts somewhere. Bodhisattas have always been great religious leaders and great seekers of truth before becoming SammāsamBuddhas. I do not believe that sotāpannas insult other religions even if they know that they are micchādiṭṭhi.
- Most Venerable Bhante Waharaka Thero said that sotāpannas can even be among Muslims and Christians and act like such.
- Of course, they will not believe in this religion, but they will do the rituals like going to the mosque or church to appease their family. This is not sīlabbata-parāmāsa because they do not believe in these rituals. There might be sotāpannas in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. In their hearts, they worship the Triple Gem and have eradicated all micchādiṭṭhis.
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Jittananto wrote: “If Buddha Dhamma increases your hatred towards non-Buddhists you are no better than all these radicals.”
I’m sorry but I do not understand how my comments count as “hatred towards non-Buddhists.” I’ve always been honest and have no interest in sugarcoating things just to please others. If my honesty comes across as “hateful” to you, that likely has more to do with your own interpretation than my intent. This is probably why you said: “One thing I notice on this forum, some insult other religions as idiots and imbeciles. This is a wrong speech and, therefore, an Akusala Kamma. You accumulate demerit no matter the target of your insult. “
I agree that insults made out of malice aren’t ideal, but even the Buddha used words like “fool” and “uninformed run-of-the-mill” to describe ignorance. In this thread, I was specifically referring to zealots who aggressively push extreme Abrahamic propaganda. If someone is being an idiot, I don’t see how it’s wrong to call them out for what they are.
“What do you know about Jesus and Muhammad?? I know that many Indians and Nepalese have hatred towards everything related to Islam and Arabs. How will this hatred lead you to Nibbāna?! I understand that according to Buddha Dhamma, they are wrong, but can you say with certainty that you are free from micchādiṭṭhi and that you are sotāpanna??!”
As for Jesus and Muhammad, I don’t even know if they existed. My critique is of the scriptures, not the individuals they endorse (who may or may not be real). For you to say, “many Indians and Nepalese hate Islam and Arabs” is a broad generalization and an unfair way to associate me with that sentiment. I evaluate religious doctrines based on their content, not based on the ethnicity or background of their followers. The Abrahamic scriptures contain numerous scientifically inaccurate claims and endorse outdated moral practices such as slavery, stoning, and genocide. Pointing out these flaws is not an expression of hatred.
“Most Venerable Bhante Nivanthapa Thero (Abbot of the monastery) told the audience, “Give me the bible, the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita, and I will show you Nibbāna.””
I don’t think he was being literal. I’ve listened to his discourses, and he has made it clear that other religions don’t lead to Nibbāna. The monastery takes a more diplomatic approach, likely because people today tend to be easily offended. But I don’t run a monastery, so I don’t feel the need to soften my words in the same way.
At the end of the day, my goal is not to appease or offend but to speak the truth as I see it. If someone finds that offensive, perhaps it is worth reflecting on why that is the case.
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“Most Venerable Bhante Nivanthapa Thero (Abbot of the monastery) told the audience, “Give me the bible, the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita, and I will show you Nibbāna.””
- Did he actually say that? Is that an accurate quote? It is hard to believe!
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I believe so. I too find it strange to see how liberal they sound in some of their discourses. But when I spoke to monks personally, they had a different attitude. My best guess is that in their public discourses, they try to sound more tolerant or accepting of non-Buddhist ideas, perhaps to avoid controversy or appeal to a wider audience.
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What does that mean *Sound liberal*???
You don’t have the skills to teaching people according to their life experience. Of course you will find strange.
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You know nothing about me so I think you should refrain from making such silly accusations. I will continue to stand by what I believe and do not care how it makes you feel. If Bible/Quran/Bhagavad Geeta can lead you to “Nibbana”, why bother looking into the Pali Canon (Buddha’s teachings)? Making a statement like that can be misleading and that is what I’ve seen in some of the Jethavanarama discourses.
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Sir, listen to this video from 13 min to 14 min. https://youtu.be/ShNhaycQXik?si=l42Plr5z3K5RT0Vq
Also, listen to this video at 1 hour 36 minutes
Nibbāna is the Supreme truth. It cannot be only found in the Tipitaka. A noble friend(ariya) with special knowledge can help other people to see this truth in their life experience. Even if the Tipitaka disappear, as long as an ariya teaches Nibbāna in the world, it doesn’t matter. If the last ariya dies, even if the Tipitaka is there, nobody will achieve Nibbāna. This is how a Sasana end. The Kalyāṇamittasutta give hint to this idea.
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We should not use words like “idiots” or “bastards” in the forum. Please refrain from using such offensive words.
- I had not read the whole thread, but now I have.
- I will watch the videos Jittananto suggested later.
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TARYAL : “You know nothing about me so I think you should refrain from making such silly accusations. I will continue to stand by what I believe and do not care how it makes you feel. If Bible/Quran/Bhagavad Geeta can lead you to “Nibbana”, why bother looking into the Pali Canon (Buddha’s teachings)? Making a statement like that can be misleading and that is what I’ve seen in some of the Jethavanarama discourses.”
- It seems to me that you prefer direct language, so I will be straightforward with you. Your presence has made this forum toxic. Your rudeness and use of profanity, along with remarks that verge on religious hatred, tarnish the reputation of this forum. Who do you think you are, insulting others as “bastards” and “idiots”? Have you freed yourself from your own defilements? If not, it would be wise to mind your language, as it will only harm others and yourself. I now understand why some members of the forum are less active than before; they have noticed that hateful and derogatory comments are becoming the norm for some.
A person with noble friend and proper merits can achieve Nibbāna, even in unlikely circumstances. For instance, Venerable Arahant Culapanthaka attained arahantship with the help of a rag and a sermon from the Buddha. If a disciple of the Buddha can explain Dhamma concepts using examples from another holy book, why should it be considered impossible? Personally, I find the Pali Canon sufficient and do not feel the need for any other books. However, I recognize that others may require different sources of support. This may be difficult for someone who disregards the feelings of others to comprehend.
Good luck on your journey toward magga phala with an attitude of “I don’t care about others feelings, and I will speak as I please.”
That is what the Buddha said.
Idamavoca bhagavā.
Then the Holy One, the Teacher, went on to say:
Idaṁ vatvāna sugato athāparaṁ etadavoca satthā:
“A man is born
“Purisassa hi jātassa,
with an axe in his mouth.
kuṭhārī jāyate mukhe;
A fool cuts themselves with it
Yāya chindati attānaṁ,
when they say bad words.
bālo dubbhāsitaṁ bhaṇaṁ.
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The monks of the monastery twist the meaning of the verses of other religions in order to explain the dhamma. Like Ven. Amadassana Thero said he believes in GOD but for him his definition of god is Give or Deny. This is kamma and kamma vipaka he’s explaining using GOD. Also he uses the Bible Phrase “The truth shall set you free” and then uses the dhamma and proves how it’s the truth and how it will lead to freedom from suffering.
They do this out of compassion for every other person of different religion as it may cause irritation if the beliefs of someone are attacked. An ignorant mind tries it’s best to defend its belief as it feels it can’t be wrong( self ego).
And I would also advise not to judge anyone only because they appear straight forward. I understand using harsh words are not good, but apart from that if someone doesn’t sugarcoat his/her statements there’s nothing wrong with that. I expect straight forward answers without any sugarcoating. The Truth.
If someone gets offended if his /her beliefs are being targeted, it’s because that being lacks Wisdom Faculty.
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- As long as you have not reached Nibbāna you are not able to really talk about others. This is what the monks of the monastery said, and this is what the Lord Buddha will also say. These people whom you despise and whom you accuse of being ignorant can you really judge their spiritual level?? The Venerable Arahant Mahapanthaka thought that his little brother, the Venerable Culapanthaka, could not reach Nibbāna and was harsh with him and was mistaken about him. However, he is an arahant and, therefore, has no bad intentions in his mind. We on this forum are subject to our defilements, and therefore, our intentions are based on ignorance of reality. Knowing that a Venerable Arahant like Mahapanthaka was mistaken about the spiritual faculties of a person imagine us when we judge others. If Lord Buddha were here today, many of these non-Buddhists would have the best chance of reaching Nibbāna. A Lord Buddha knows perfectly how to teach everyone according to their spiritual level.
- Other ariyas have this ability but, it is not perfect like that of a SammāsamBuddha. The monks of the monastery use this ability.
- We do not possess this quality so we must be careful not to discourage others, ESPECIALLY IF WE ARE NOT FREE FROM ALL DEFILEMENTS. Some people among them are Bodhisattas, some will attain Nibbāna in future Sasanas, and others will be paccekabuddhas. WE DO NOT HAVE THE INFINITE KNOWLEDGE OF A LORD BUDDHA TO JUDGE.
- Another thing. Knowing that this cycle of rebirth is infinite and that we have committed all kinds of akusalas in the past. Maybe you two who are judging these people were religious masters who propagated these religions. We have been the worst radicals and extremists in this cycle of rebirth how can we not understand this simple fact? If you suffer the inconveniences of their presence then you are reaping the kammic seeds of the past. If you truly believe in Buddha Dhamma you should know this.
Cultivate Metta, Karuna and Tilakkhana until you become ariya and you will not be disturbed by them.
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If I have offended anyone, please forgive me. 🙏🏿 I am not perfect, and we are here because we believe in the Noble Triple Gem. I believe that truth and supreme happiness cannot be discovered without the help of the Lord Buddha or his disciples. However, the ultimate truth is always present, and one only needs to learn it through the noble association with the Triple Gem.
Once a person has acquired this Dhamma and has become at least a sotāpanna, they can recognize this truth everywhere and discern it from erroneous beliefs. Most Venerable Waharaka Thero is an example. I am very sure that without him the majority of us will continue to take Annica for impermanence. He recognized the misinterpretations of Tilakkhana and other concepts of the Tipitaka. A knowledgeable ariya can illustrate Nibbāna found in other sacred texts while separating micchādiṭṭhi (wrong views). The Lord Buddha demonstrated Nibbāna through the Vedas to Māgandhiya. See Vedās Originated With Buddha Kassapa’s Teachings
When one is wise enough and established in magga phala (the path and its fruition), one can teach the Dhamma through various examples, including texts from other religions. This is what Venerable Bhante Nivanthapa Thero meant when he stated that he could find Nibbāna in the Bible or the Quran.
I have shared this message for the sake of any non-Buddhist readers. Even though I strongly disagree with Taryal and Yash’s remarks, I apologize to him as well. I should not have labelled him as a toxic person; I went too far in my comments, even though my intentions seemed right to me. I spoke angrily. Taryal, please forgive me🙏🏿.
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We have discussed enough the issue of “using sensitive words.”
- I believe all three of you are sincere about your intentions. We can resolve the issue by avoiding “sensitive” words in the future.
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Regarding the videos linked by Jttananto on March 4, 2025 at 5:17 pm.
First, I have listened to several Sinhala discourses by the Thero over the years. Of course, he has a good understanding of Buddha Dhamma.
- I was surprised to hear the specific quotes pointed out by Jittananto, and I believe those comments were intended to target a specific audience.
Jittananto wrote: “listen to this video from 13 min to 14 min”
- Nibbana sukha is not a happiness in the sense of a vedana felt. Of course, one would feel that type of vedana too, especially at the beginning (and while on the path).
- This must be a discourse delivered to children or beginners to the Buddha Dhamma.
In the second discourse (video), he says “one can find the truth in the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita.”
- That is not correct. Only a Buddha can discover the ultimate truth, and we have discussed this in many posts: “pubbe ananussutesu Dhammsu” or “previously unknown teachings.”
- Again, I am not sure what the objective of the discourse was. It may have been for beginners to the Buddha’s teachings.
Various teachers use different methods based on the audience.
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Sir Lal : That is not correct. Only a Buddha can discover the ultimate truth, and we have discussed this in many posts: “pubbe ananussutesu Dhammsu” or “previously unknown teachings.”
Again, I am not sure what the objective of the discourse was. It may have been for beginners to the Buddha’s teachings.
- He gave this talk to help Christians and Muslims in the audience feel more comfortable. While it is impossible to attain Nibbana outside of the Buddha Dhamma, a sufficiently experienced ariya can recognize elements of the Dhamma in other sacred texts and share this understanding with others. If these individuals possess the necessary merits, they may achieve Nibbana by associating with a disciple of Lord Buddha. If not, they can cultivate additional merit and attain Nibbana later on.
- A perfect example is Venerable Bhante Maitri (Daniel St). Like me, he comes from a very Christian background. He has also had the fortune of encountering the Buddha Dhamma. We discuss these topics regularly, and he tells me that his relatives are increasingly interested in the Buddha Dhamma. He uses passages from the Bible to teach them, as he is not yet able to reference the Tipitaka directly. We need to be compassionate and recognize that not everyone shares the same level of understanding as we do. The best approach to teaching is to communicate in a way that resonates with their level of comprehension.
- Now, let’s consider how I could become your student in advanced mathematics, Sir Lal. I must be alert and ready to learn. While I know how to count and calculate, that alone is not sufficient. You would need to evaluate my calculation skills, right? You would likely introduce me to increasingly complex calculations, taking familiar examples and expanding upon them with more complicated ones. This is a methodical process. In your class, some students may progress faster than I do and might not require additional examples, while others may take longer. As a teacher, you would want us all to succeed, adapting your teaching to each student’s abilities.
- This approach is similar to teaching the Buddha Dhamma. Consider Brahmāyu the Brahmin and compare him to Venerable Arahant Bahiya. Brahmāyu had faith in Lord Buddha because of the Vedās, and Lord Buddha strengthened that foundation before he make him a sotāpanna. In contrast, Venerable Bahiya needed no such reinforcement or sacred text; he attained arahantship on the spot. For most people, Lord Buddha begins with moral teachings, guiding them towards rebirth in a deva or Brahma realm, and finally towards Nibbāna. They became sotāpanna. However, Venerable Bahiya did not require this foundational teaching.
See Brahmāyusutta
He had mastered the three Vedas, together with their vocabularies and ritual performance, their phonology and word classification, and the testaments as fifth. He knew them word-by-word, and their grammar……
Then the Buddha taught him step by step, with
Atha kho bhagavā brahmāyussa brāhmaṇassa anupubbiṁ kathaṁ kathesi, seyyathidaṁ—
a talk on giving, ethical conduct, and heaven.
dānakathaṁ, sīlakathaṁ, saggakathaṁ;
He explained the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, so sordid and corrupt, and the benefit of renunciation.
kāmānaṁ ādīnavaṁ okāraṁ saṅkilesaṁ nekkhamme ānisaṁsaṁ pakāsesi.
And when the Buddha knew that Divinityyu’s mind was ready, pliable, rid of hindrances, elated, and confident he explained the special teaching of the Buddhas:
Yadā bhagavā aññāsi brahmāyuṁ brāhmaṇaṁ kallacittaṁ muducittaṁ vinīvaraṇacittaṁ udaggacittaṁ pasannacittaṁ, atha yā buddhānaṁ sāmukkaṁsikā dhammadesanā taṁ pakāsesi—
suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path.
dukkhaṁ, samudayaṁ, nirodhaṁ, maggaṁ.
Just as a clean cloth rid of stains would properly absorb dye,
in that very seat the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in the brahmin Brahmāyu:
evameva brahmāyussa brāhmaṇassa tasmiṁyeva āsane virajaṁ vītamalaṁ dhammacakkhuṁ udapādi:
“Everything that has a beginning has an end.”
“yaṁ kiñci samudayadhammaṁ sabbaṁ taṁ nirodhadhamman”ti.
Let the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma! Let the Holy One teach me the Dhamma!
Desetu me, bhante, bhagavā dhammaṁ;
That would be for my lasting welfare and happiness.”
desetu sugato dhammaṁ, yaṁ mamassa dīgharattaṁ hitāya sukhāyā”ti.
“In that case, Bāhiya, you should train like this:
“Tasmātiha te, bāhiya, evaṁ sikkhitabbaṁ:
‘In the seen will be merely the seen; in the heard will be merely the heard; in the thought will be merely the thought; in the known will be merely the known.’
‘diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṁ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṁ bhavissati, mute mutamattaṁ bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattaṁ bhavissatī’ti.
That’s how you should train.
Evañhi te, bāhiya, sikkhitabbaṁ.
When you have trained in this way,
Yato kho te, bāhiya, diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṁ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṁ bhavissati, mute mutamattaṁ bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattaṁ bhavissati,
you won’t be ‘by that’.
tato tvaṁ, bāhiya, na tena.
When you’re not ‘by that’,
Yato tvaṁ, bāhiya, na tena;
you won’t be ‘in that’.
tato tvaṁ, bāhiya, na tattha.
When you’re not ‘in that’,
Yato tvaṁ, bāhiya, na tattha,
you won’t be in this world or the world beyond or between the two.
tato tvaṁ, bāhiya, nevidha na huraṁ na ubhayamantarena.
Just this is the end of suffering.”
Esevanto dukkhassā”ti.
Then, due to this brief Dhamma teaching of the Buddha, Bāhiya’s mind was right away freed from defilements by not grasping.
Atha kho bāhiyassa dārucīriyassa bhagavato imāya saṅkhittāya dhammadesanāya tāvadeva anupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimucci.
- Not everyone learns in the same way. Only a Lord Buddha knows perfectly how to teach a being every time. Lord Buddha is constantly in the 4 Brahma viharas, which is also why beings feel peaceful in his presence. If we give the Dhamma without having this in mind, others will not be mentally incomfortable. Being compassionate and benevolent means taking into account the mental predispositions of others. Of course, we can make mistakes about what to do. Only a Lord Buddha does not make mistakes. The monastery tries its best to make the audience comfortable regardless of each person’s religion. The goal is to show them the ultimate truth and this can never be done without compassion.
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Jittananto wrote: “Then, due to this brief Dhamma teaching of the Buddha, Bāhiya’s mind was right away freed from defilements by not grasping.”
- Ven. Bahiya was one of a kind. In fact, he was the only one capable of understanding the meaning of that short verse in all of Buddha Sasana. Probably Minister Santati was the second.
- Even Ven. Sariputta took two weeks to attain Arahantship.
- Despite all efforts, we are not aware of a single living Arahant these days. I wonder how many Sotapannas are there. Probably not that many. It is not easy.
It is not a good idea to compare Buddha’s teachings (and equate) with other religions or philosophies. That is my belief.
- A person with a hundred-year lifespan has a brief time to get to at least the Sotapanna stage.
- Spending time “praising each other” on common moral qualities among religions is a waste of time (of course, we should not condemn other religions either; but we can point out the enormous difference).
- The goal of Buddha Dhamma is not just to live a moral life (of course that is essential), but to at least glimpse the “ultimate truth” in the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana to attain the Sotapanna stage.
- That cannot be done by reading the Bible or Bhagavad Gita.
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- All religions outside Dhamma are limited or just false. Some religions come from spiritual experiences plus ignorance on top of it, some are just made to use people’s ignorance to control and benefit themselves. Those two things often co-exist as clergy and mysticism/mystics in most religions (via western categories).
- Saying that you can attain Nibbana through the bible or use examples from the bible is misleading but I think they want to sugarcoat and appeal to people outside Buddha Dhamma. In a position when you need to survive as a monastery based on other people’s good will you may do things like that. If real Dhamma were recognized as something of substance like science they could just have grants for their spiritual research but that’s a different topic.
- From what I see taryal just asking questions and has a very inquiring nature – I don’t see anything wrong with it as long as you do not get into heavy statements. It’s very good to be skeptical, logical, rational, and ask questions as long as one looks for what is true in terms of existential things. Calling people idiots even if they are religious idiots it’s not a perfect solution, is not close to a solution. If they can’t understand their ignorance you do not do anything with them simple some people are incapable of getting of their addictions, religions, desires, or whatever. They may in the future, and they may in the next life but it’s not up to us to be in a position of calling people idiots even if they are simple it does not bring outcomes you would want to get from calling people that. If you don’t follow cause and effect logic – it makes no sense to so.
- The moral life of Buddhist and religious persons is different, while Buddha praised old Vedas (because they come from Buddha teachings anyway) moral life of someone who practices Dhamma comes from understanding rather than just ruleset. It is in line with understanding and whole teaching, while morality of religions is based on fairy tales.
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I was confusing Nibbana as No Self and Annihilation without even realising it!
I was mistaken by what the bhikkus were trying to communicate maybe.
This is the reason I was and am experiencing fear. It’s like focusing on Asanna state maybe.
I now feel my mistake. What should I do now? This fear arises again as I have been practicing it for long, so this feeling of no self comes again and again.
It was like “I am nothing?” Or “I don’t exist” etc.
What is the cure for this sir?
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3 billion humans are either Christians or Muslims. Some became so through spiritual experiences. Of course, they remain in micchādiṭṭhis. However, it is wrong to say that it is based on fables. Personally, I believe that certain passages from the Bible or other religious books can come from elements of the Buddha Dhamma. The famous phrase “the truth will set you free” can lead Christians to ask themselves deeper questions. It is possible through these elements to lead them to explore the Buddha Dhamma and eventually to free themselves.
- The monks of the Jethavaranama monastery are extremely experienced and advanced. It would not be surprising to discover that many are ariyas. I have complete confidence in them and I am sure that their work will bring a large number of people to Nibbāna regardless of their path in life. With wisdom, kusalas and noble association one can attain Nibbāna no matter what religion one practiced in the past.
- They don’t need to do anything superficial to survive. When one practices the Dhamma seriously without arrogance one is naturally protected and supported by others. The anagarikas in the monastery are also extremely advanced in their practice and are naturally protected and supported as the monks. I don’t see anything that will worry them.
Dhammo have rakkhati Dhammacāriṁ
He who takes care of the dhamma, the dhamma takes care of him.
- This is why Jethavaranama lacks nothing not because of sugarcoating.
One thing a monk from the monastery told me. He says that it is easier to teach non-Buddhists than born Buddhists. He says this because most Buddhists are arrogant and think that they don’t need to listen to what they have to say “We already know all that.” The non-Buddhists who come to see them are more open and attentive to the sermon because is a new vision of the world.They don’t take it for granted. They also tell them the truth. They tell them that if they want to attain Nibbāna, they must leave all wrong beliefs, including their religion. THEY SAY THIS WITH COMPASSION without showing that they are superior. They tell them that their religion is right only up to a certain point. THEY TELL THEM THAT ONLY BUDDHA DHAMMA LEADS TO NIBBĀNA IN THE LONG RUN. I have confidence in the noble sangha of Lord Buddha. If they say that they can show elements useful for liberation in other religious books, I believe them completely. Venerable Arahant Culapanthaka became an arahant with the help of a cloth. This does not mean that the rag is the truth. It means that it can be a tool leading to the truth with the help of the noble association. Not everyone becomes an ariya in the same way. It doesn’t matter if you people on the forum see this as sugarcoating; what is certain is that it works, and people are becoming bhikkhus or anagarikas there. I know a forum member who lives there now. He said he is in heaven. With all this noble association, he doesn’t want to leave. He wants to stay there for the rest of his life.
See also the story of Bhikkhu Pothila who knew the teachings of Lord Buddha by heart but was so arrogant that he refused to listen to others. How many Buddhists are like him today? He became an arahant with the help of a child arahant. Let us not be like Bhikkhu Pothila. As long as we are not free from our defilements, we are fools.
Many people who practice Buddha Dhamma lack compassion and kindness. What makes Jethavaranama successful is not the sugarcoating but the KINDNESS AND COMPASSION they express to others. Their mission of preserving the Sasana of Lord Buddha is what makes them successful. Qualities that many lack. It is all well and good to teach the Dhamma, but if you do not have the 4 Brahmas viharas, your Dhamma is empty. Instead of insulting others and showing ourselves to be superior, maybe if we develop the 4 Brahmas viharas and progress in the path, they will be more likely to listen to us, right?
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“Venerable Arahant Culapanthaka became an arahant with the help of a cloth. This does not mean that the rag is the truth.“
Well, that is a bit of a stretch of argument, same with Pothila – I think you using those arguments in the wrong way. Still, they are irrelevant to the actual situation as their situation and story are different, by stretch I mean you trying to make the argument as you take two different things and try to make them look like they are the same while they are whole other things and positions are not relatable to what you are saying. Those Bhikkus were in a very unique scenarios that had nothing to do with what you trying to convey through those arguments.
Trying to buy people to “your side” and sugarcoat things will not be good in the long run as it creates false expectations in the long run. If people care about what is true it will not matter what they are in the context of religious manner, spiritual, or whatever. If a person does not have the qualities to become a “real” Buddhist you do not convince anyone to do so. Dhamma is not really “missionary” but I understand the position of Bhikkus in the modern day, they need to do “something” to bring people to their place which is not bad – especially in the case if promoting real things.
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It is good to hear that you are fully recovered, Yash.
- I will make some comments that could be helpful to the general audience. Some issues Yash raised are common.
Yash wrote: “I was confusing Nibbana as No Self and Annihilation without even realising it!”
1. This is a common confusion, especially since we frequently see “anatta” incorrectly translated as “no-self.”
- “Anatta” is not about a self. It is the third characteristic (feature) of everything about Nature. We pursue worldly things/pleasures with the wrong view/perception of “nicca” (pronounced “nichcha.” That means to engage in actions (with abhisankhara in mind) to pursue worldly pleasures. Such a view (ditthi) arises due to wrong perception (distorted sanna) about things in the world. Such pursuits only lead to more suffering in the future (dukkha). Thus, such efforts/actions are not fruitful and dangerous (anatta; pronounced “anaththa.”).
- That is how the three characteristics are related: anicca nature leads to dukkha, and at the end, when one is reborn in an apaya, one becomes helpless (anatta).
2. Even without the above mistranslation issue, the following is another problem. Whenever they hear that an Arahant will not be reborn, a sense of fear may arise in some: What will happen to me then? Will “I” disappear? Do I want that to happen to me?
- This is why it is better not to initially think about the Arahant stage. It is a step-by-step process.
- First, one must understand that craving for worldly things will only lead to suffering in the end. That may not happen to some in this life (we know drug dealers who live luxurious lives until they die.) That is why one cannot learn Buddha’s teachings without first seeing the validity of laws of kamma and the rebirth process.
- When one starts understanding the Paticca Samuppāda process, one realizes how each rebirth ends in suffering. Death is inevitable for any existence.
- That is when one slowly begins to realize that there is nothing like a “permanent soul.” Each rebirth is according to the types of kamma accumulated and prevailing conditions at the time of death.
- In this life one is human. But in the next life, it could be a Deva, Brahma, animal, or even a hell-being, depending on the type of kammic energies accumulated and the prevailing conditions.
- For example, Angulimala had accumulated enough kammic energy (in his last life itself) to be reborn in an apāya. But the meeting with Buddha changed the prevailing conditions. Within an hour after meeting the Buddha, he became a Sotapanna and that possibility disappeared. Then he became an Arahant within a few more weeks and the conditions for any rebirth disappeared (i.e., all ten samyojana were eliminated from his mind).
3. Thus, in the end it is the comprehension of the “true nature of the world” (yathābhuta ñāna) that leads to breaking the sansaric bonds (samyojana) and eliminating ANY future suffering.
- But getting there is a step-by-step process. It is a mistake to start with “what would happen to me at Arahanthod?” That question would not even arise as one progresses on the path.
- It starts with living a moral life and learning the “nature of the world” per the teachings of the Buddha. Then one would realize that everything in this world is a grand illusion based on “distorted saññā.” The perception of “me” or “I” is an illusion. However, just saying “I” or “me” doesn’t exist is insufficient (and could be dangerous, too). One must “see” that with wisdom (paññā.) It is also called “dhamma cakkhu.”
- It is not easy, but it is the only guaranteed way. One must be patient and follow the path step-by-step.
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P.S. I saw Christian’s comment after posting the above. It is quite correct.
- One must do a deep analysis to understand how “Venerable Arahant Culapanthaka became an Arahant.
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To short it up for your comfort Yash
– “No self” through Nibbana should be positive, blissful, and happy (which is different from “no self” from other religions and philosophies or nihilism) No self in Dhamma is based on Anatta is pointless to seek “sense/self fulfillment” in this world, it’s not related to non-existence/nihilism but to the whole process of Paticca Samupadda – when “self” does not get stimulus from the wrong views it does not cease to exist in terms of existence but in terms of ignorance. It’s hard to convey this idea but I hope you will get the difference.
– No self through delusional ideas and thoughts/imagination will be awful as it disagrees with ignorance that people have. It will create existential dread, anxiety, and other bad stuff simply because you are doing the wrong practice, the wrong way with the wrong views.
As long as you see positives as positives and negatives as negatives your mind will find balance.
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Well, that is a bit of a stretch of argument, same with Pothila – I think you using those arguments in the wrong way. Still, they are irrelevant to the actual situation as their situation and story are different, by stretch I mean you trying to make the argument as you take two different things and try to make them look like they are the same while they are whole other things and positions are not relatable to what you are saying. Those Bhikkus were in a very unique scenarios that had nothing to do with what you trying to convey through those arguments.
- You are free to see this like that. I am not there to win something. What I says is without the 4 Brahma viharas you cannot teach the Dhamma. If you are arrogant your path is defiled.
Dhamma is not really “missionary” but I understand the position of Bhikkus in the modern day, they need to do “something” to bring people to their place which is not bad – especially in the case if promoting real things.
- False. See : Dutiyamārapāsasutta
Wander forth, mendicants, for the welfare and happiness of the people, out of sympathy for the world, for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of gods and humans.
Caratha, bhikkhave, cārikaṁ bahujanahitāya bahujanasukhāya lokānukampāya atthāya hitāya sukhāya devamanussānaṁ.
Let not two go by one road.
Mā ekena dve agamittha.
Teach the Dhamma that’s good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased. And reveal a spiritual practice that’s entirely full and pure.
Desetha, bhikkhave, dhammaṁ ādikalyāṇaṁ majjhekalyāṇaṁ pariyosānakalyāṇaṁ sātthaṁ sabyañjanaṁ kevalaparipuṇṇaṁ parisuddhaṁ brahmacariyaṁ pakāsetha.
There are beings with little dust in their eyes. They’re in decline because they haven’t heard the teaching.
Santi sattā apparajakkhajātikā, assavanatā dhammassa parihāyanti.
There will be those who understand the teaching!
Bhavissanti dhammassa aññātāro.
- The last thing I want to say on this subject is this: Whether you believe it or not, criticizing the work of the Sangha leads to demerit and creates a blockage on your path to Nibbāna. Accusing the monastery of sugarcoating is inappropriate. Unlike us, these noble monks live the Dhamma 24/7 and strive to maintain the Sasana. How many of you would be willing to give up your home, family, money, and possessions to live the Dhamma? If you cannot make that sacrifice, it is better not to criticize the Sangha; we owe them great respect.
I have personally experienced the life of a bhikkhu, and I can guarantee that few people can support this way of life. If I could, I would not be on this forum; it is only for the wise and resilient. In Sinhala, these monks delve deeply into the Dhamma and offer extremely detailed teachings. Sir Lal and anyone who speaks Sinhala can attest to this.
It is best to maintain respect for the Maha Sangha. I will not speak further on this subject. Again, if I have offended anyone, I apologize.
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Sir, it is derogatory to accuse the monastery of sugarcoating or to associate them with political views like saying, “They sound liberal.” I personally don’t think it is appropriate to say that to people who dedicate their lives 24/7 to the Dhamma. That is my personal opinion, Sir. I have been in the company of monks in Thailand and I was one. I have a lot of respect for the Maha Sangha. I am personally sensitive on this subject. Please, I do not want to dwell on this subject any longer.
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Regarding the Dutiyamārapāsasutta that you cited, Jittananto, The Buddha says:
“Bikkhus, I am freed from all snares, both human and heavenly. You are also freed from all snares, both human and heavenly.“
He was talking to Arahants who have completed The Ariya Path and is saying that as a consequence, they are not only qualified to teach Buddha Dhamma, but that it would make sense for them to do so because they have done what needed to be done (i.e., attain Nibbana).
Jittananto, I read all of your posts and generally find your comments to be very insightful. With that being said, I don’t entirely agree with your position regarding this discussion. What is important is the intention behind our actions. If we were to criticize a group of monks and nuns and that endeavour were rooted in aversiveness, that would obviously be a bad thing to do. But if our intention is to sort our understanding out; to clarify whether or not what someone presents as being Buddha Dhamma matches up with how we see it, not only does that not constitute a demerit, it is absolutely critical.
I have searched far and wide and have yet to come across anything that is in the same ballpark as Waharaka Thero and Pure Dhamma. In my opinion, Jethavanarama Monastery is no exception. There are a lot of things that they get very right but they aren’t without their issues. To not be critical of those issues is to do a disservice to someone who is trying to attain Nibbana.
It has long surprised me that we discuss and reference them to the extent that we do. If you do a side-by-side comparision of Lal’s explanations and theirs with respect to the three characteristics of nature, they are simply not saying the same thing. Now, you could push back against that point by arguing they are explaining the same thing but from different angles – to which I would say that anicca is a particular way and by extension, there are a whole bunch of other ways in which it isn’t.
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I don’t think I concluded my previous post very well, so here goes – in addition to Jethavanarama Monastery, I also really like the teachings of Hillside Hermitage. With some of their videos, they knock the ball out of the park. But in certain key areas, they are (IMO) either wrong or not nearly as accurate as they could be. Clearly, that is not ideal. We live during a time where this is commonplace. We are all trying to figure this out as best as we can. That means thoroughly questioning what we think we know as well as the statements that others make.
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“I have searched far and wide and have yet to come across anything that is in the same ballpark as Waharaka Thero and Pure Dhamma. In my opinion, Jethavanarama Monastery is no exception. “
- Please, I don’t think we can talk about Venerable Waharaka Thero if we have never seen him. No one in this forum or website has seen Venerable Waharaka Thero in real life. The Venerable Abbot of Jethavaranama Monastery, Bhante Nivanthapa Thero, is a direct disciple of Venerable Waharaka Thero. Everything he has learned comes from him and he is the best person to talk about his master. None of us here can claim to know Venerable Waharaka Thero or understand his teaching better than Bhante Nivanthapa Thero. If we really mastered the Dhamma, we would have given up lay life. That was to answer you, Dawson. Please don’t take it the wrong way. As I said, it would be better to not discuss this subject again.
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This discussion is getting too personal. Our goal is to learn Dhamma. It is better not to put down or promote teachers. Please stop doing either. Different people (including teachers) have different preferences/perspectives and are at varying levels of understanding. Only a Buddha can see anyone else’s level of understanding; we can only make guesses.
- If you have a question you would like to discuss, you can post it. If you can answer or provide helpful information on others’ questions, please do so, too. We all would appreciate that. Let us discuss Dhamma concepts, not teachers.
- If you had a specific experience or issue with a teacher, please don’t post names. If a problem is unresolved, you can ask the question without posting the source. Our goal is to learn Dhamma.
- I encourage everyone to follow teachers/instructors whom they like. There are many teachers out there. I have listed some (not a complete list) in “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro.” You should learn from whoever is providing helpful information. It is a good idea to listen to/read from various teachers. You will automatically spend more time with your preferred teachers because you learn more from them.
- It is better not to be attached to a specific teacher other than the Buddha.
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Few indeed have the courage to acknowledge their flaws and admit their mistakes. Though I’m late, I want to commend Jittananto for doing so and also extend my sincere apology to him and everyone else in this thread—Buddhists and non-Buddhists alike. No matter how flawed someone else’s beliefs may appear to be, deprecating them with harsh words is never a noble deed. I, too, recognize that I’m not perfect and at times, I don’t realize that my spontaneity might negatively affect others. Having struggled with anger issues throughout my life, I’ve often found it difficult to tolerate environments or perspectives that I’ve perceived as “idiotic” or “nonsensical.” And I won’t deny that it used to be much worse before encountering the Dhamma. It has taken a lot of work for me to get to where I am but this is another sign that there’s a lot more to be done. I would like to make it known that I’ve had friends who are Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Agnostics, Mahayanists, and more, and have no intention in wishing or causing harm to any of them. We are all in this world together trying to figure out what it means to exist and our struggles are very real. The worst thing we can do is tear each other down.
I also want to address a possible misunderstanding. Some may have taken my words as criticism of Jethavanarama Monastery, but that was never my intent. I have personally spoken to the monks there and have nothing but respect for them and their dedication. They were the ones who taught me many fundamental concepts like cause and effect, pleasure and vexation, etc. that filled important gaps in my understanding. My comment was never meant to accuse them of sugarcoating the truth; it was simply an attempt at genuine critique. If my words gave the wrong impression, I deeply regret that.
“Bhikkhus, don’t get into arguments, such as:
“You don’t understand this teaching and training. I understand this teaching and training. What, you understand this teaching and training? You’re practicing wrong. I’m practicing right. I stay on topic, you don’t. You said last what you should have said first. You said first what you should have said last. What you’ve thought so much about has been disproved. Your doctrine is refuted. Go on, save your doctrine! You’re trapped; get yourself out of this—if you can!”
Why is that? Because those discussions aren’t beneficial or relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They don’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment.”
“Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb with a two-handed saw, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will not degenerate. We will utter no harsh words. We will remain full of sympathy, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate, spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate, spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.”
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Hi Taryal,
I want to sincerely apologize for my harsh words towards you. My manner of speaking was arrogant, and is not a good way to pass a message. I also apologize to anyone else I may have offended. Since none of us can be certain that we are ariyas, we will inevitably make mistakes. Our goal should be to eliminate our micchādiṭṭhis, maintain complete confidence in the noble association of the Noble Maha Sangha, and strive towards Nibbāna (In the long run, no religion or scientific views can help us to do that. Only the Buddha Dhamma can help us).
May the noble Triple Gem bless us all. 🙏🏿☸️🌸
- Criticizing monks is appropriate when they teach wrong views and when they do not respect the Vinaya.
- However, different methods of teaching with the 4 Brahma viharas and Tilakkhana work in the long run. The Venerable monks of Jethavaranama seem to have these qualities.
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This reminds me of the story of Venerable Arahant Nanda, half-brother of Lord Buddha. Do you know how Lord Buddha convinced him to become an arahant??? He promised that if he became an arahant, he would give him many maiden devis as his wives from Sakka’s Harem. I was confused and laughed while reading this. How can a Lord Buddha promise sensual pleasures in exchange for Nibbana?? However, if we analyze it clearly, he has a trap. An arahant will NOT crave anything!!! Venerable Nanda did not seem to understand this.
All this to say that he has unusual methods of teaching the Dhamma!! Jethavaranama Buddhist Monastery uses a particular method too.
Then the Buddha took Nanda by the arm and, as easily as a strong person would extend or contract their arm, vanished from Jeta’s Grove and reappeared among the gods of the thirty-three.
Atha kho bhagavā āyasmantaṁ nandaṁ bāhāyaṁ gahetvā—seyyathāpi nāma balavā puriso samiñjitaṁ vā bāhaṁ pasāreyya, pasāritaṁ vā bāhaṁ samiñjeyya; evamevaṁ—jetavane antarahito devesu tāvatiṁsesu pāturahosi.
Now at that time five hundred dove-footed nymphs had come to attend to Sakka, the lord of gods.
Tena kho pana samayena pañcamattāni accharāsatāni sakkassa devānamindassa upaṭṭhānaṁ āgatāni honti kakuṭapādāni.
Then the Buddha said to Nanda,
Atha kho bhagavā āyasmantaṁ nandaṁ āmantesi:
“Nanda, do you see these five hundred dove-footed nymphs?”
“passasi no tvaṁ, nanda, imāni pañca accharāsatāni kakuṭapādānī”ti?
“Yes, sir,” he replied.
“Evaṁ, bhante”ti.
“What do you think, Nanda? Who is more attractive, good-looking, and lovely—the finest lady of the Sakyan land, or these five hundred dove-footed nymphs?”
“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, nanda, katamā nu kho abhirūpatarā vā dassanīyatarā vā pāsādikatarā vā, sākiyānī vā janapadakalyāṇī, imāni vā pañca accharāsatāni kakuṭapādānī”ti?
“Compared to these five hundred dove-footed nymphs, the finest lady of the Sakyan land is like a deformed monkey with its ears and nose cut off.
“Seyyathāpi, bhante, paluṭṭhamakkaṭī kaṇṇanāsacchinnā;
She doesn’t count, there’s no comparison, she’s not worth a fraction.
evamevaṁ kho, bhante, sākiyānī janapadakalyāṇī imesaṁ pañcannaṁ accharāsatānaṁ upanidhāya saṅkhyampi nopeti kalabhāgampi nopeti upanidhimpi nopeti.
These five hundred dove-footed nymphs are far more attractive, good-looking, and lovely.”
Atha kho imāni pañca accharāsatāni abhirūpatarāni ceva dassanīyatarāni ca pāsādikatarāni cā”ti.
“Rejoice, Nanda, rejoice!
“Abhirama, nanda, abhirama, nanda.
I guarantee you five hundred dove-footed nymphs.”
Ahaṁ te pāṭibhogo pañcannaṁ accharāsatānaṁ paṭilābhāya kakuṭapādānan”ti.
“If, sir, you guarantee me five hundred dove-footed nymphs, I shall happily lead the spiritual life under the Buddha.”
“Sace me, bhante, bhagavā pāṭibhogo pañcannaṁ accharāsatānaṁ paṭilābhāya kakuṭapādānaṁ, abhiramissāmahaṁ, bhante, bhagavati brahmacariye”ti.
- Venerable Nanda became arahant after that ! He refuses to have them.
- A Lord Buddha can reveal Nibbāna in any unusual situation if a person has the merits to comprehend it. This is why he is referred to as the Supreme Master. While the disciples of Lord Buddha do so to a lesser degree. The Triple Gem is truly immeasurable.
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This also is out of context. Are you saying monks at Jethavaranama can transport people into deva worlds to show him things, and they correlate their cravings with Dhamma? Of course not. Every modern Sangha has flaws, positives, and negatives because they are not conducted with living Buddha or (probably) living Arahant. We need to be critical of every one of them and learn what works.
Using examples of monks from suttas like that and comparing it to modern monks is untruthful. I’m not trying to take away anything from the real extent of any Sangha work but this is clearly sugarcoating and sugarcoating is always harmful in the long term. Being enamored with anything leads to blindness. You also using other stories of monks that have much deeper meaning in their Path – they are not applicable for what we have now and the level of people we have. Unless somebody comes and claims Arahantship – you need to scale down your expectations.
Real Dhamma is on the comeback for sure, but it will take either like 10-20 years more or we will need to wait for the next Buddha to have Arahants again. (which will be a sign that all teachings are gone anyway)
What we need is monks (who see the truth) to challenge people and “wake up desire” to know what is real, and true in existential matter beyond religions. Not just sugarcoating them into accepting that Dhamma is something true using their religion as a bridge and trying to say it is the same thing that Buddha did which is a misunderstanding.
Teaching Dhamma must be done in a pure way with logic, facts, truths, heart, and discipline. It includes seeing things as they are and disregarding what is not true. Doing too much will just harm people in the long term and harm Dhamma because it leaves a bad/wrong impression and when a person comes to the point of “getting something” (and they will not) they will lose faith because they started on the wrong foot, views and expectations towards Dhamma.
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- Once again, Christian, you can say what you want, but as long as you have not renounced the lay life, you are not in a good position to criticize them. Nowadays it is almost impossible to become a Lay Arahant or Anagami. If one is really serious about attaining Nibbāna as quickly as possible one should take the robe immediately. When one does not do so, it is better to avoid criticizing those who do except if they do bad deeds with the robe.
- The life of a bhikkhu is the most suitable one to easily attain all the stages of Nibbāna. The monks of the monastery all want, for the most part, to become arahants. Most Venerable Bhante Waharaka Thero predicted the advent of many arahants. Personally, I believe that Jethavaranama will be the foundation of this advent. Venerable Abbot Bhante Nivanthpa Thero said that their goal is to become arahants nothing else. Of course, everyone is free to believe or not.
- Personally, I prefer to listen to people who have renounced their worldly life and who have committed themselves to the path of Lord Buddha than to simply lay people on an internet forum. As I said, the life of a bhikkhu is not easy. I have tried it personally, and it is not given to everyone. It takes a level of purity to live it fully. It is a double-edged sword. One can either end up like Venerable Arahant Sariputta or like Bhante Devadatta (if he does evil deeds). It is a testament to their sincerity on the path. Of course, there are corrupt bhikkhus, however, they are relatively easy to recognize. You just have to see if they contradict the Tipitaka and teach wrong views. I have not seen anything wrong in their speeches. My example of the Venerable Nanda and the Lord Buddha was to show that there are different ways of teaching the Dhamma. Of course, Lord Buddha is supreme and no one is comparable to him. However, the disciples of Lord Buddha are led to imitate him in different aspects. No one in this world is immune to criticism. Even Lord Buddha has been abused and accused of manipulating, destroying society and sugarcoating as you like to say. Puthujunas might say that Lord Buddha is a manipulator who only wants to keep his younger brother in the Sangha. Venerable Nanda wanted to leave the Maha Sangha if you read the text. No matter what anyone says, Venerable Nanda became an arahant. You can accuse the noble monks of Jethavaranama of sugarcoating and even manipulating, but that will not stop non-Buddhists from following them and even becoming Bhikkhus or anagarikas. In a Dhamma sermon, one must consider one’s audience. Depending on the audience, one must adapt one’s speech. You can see it as sugarcoating if you want. I am 100% sure that you have not watched most of their video. In some videos, they go further and use the Abhidamma. In their Sinhala videos, they go much further than all their English sermons. Sir Lal and anyone who speaks Sinhala can know this. It is better to give up everything that hinders Nibbāna (including worldly life) to be able to better educate others on the path. Criticizing serious bhikkhus while enjoying worldly life is not beneficial.
- This is just my opinion. I learned the Dhamma from bhikkhus. All my knowledge of the stories of the Dhammapada, the suttas, the Vinaya and some parts of the Abhidamma comes from my stay with bhikkhus and anagarikas in Thailand. This is why I revere the Maha Sangha monks and anagarikas. I learned to recognize corrupt bhikkhus, and I can assure you that Jethavaranama truly represents the ideal of the Maha Sangha, therefore far from corruption. This is a community animated by the 4 Brahmas viharas. By discussing almost every week with them and the testimonies of the members of the forum who live there, I can only admire them.
It is not beneficial to dwell too much on this subject. Sir Lal gave excellent advice that it is more important to practice Dhamma than this kind of subject.
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Again I will keep correcting idealistic theories that have no place in Dhamma. The difference between real-life experience and theories is clear here.
“as long as you have not renounced the lay life, you are not in a good position to criticize them” – This is a bad take, is the same idea in clergy and churches, you criticize people or whoever you want no matter their position and status (ask questions, doubt, criticize and seek holes to make Dhamma and people better as long as you do not do it with bad/wrong intentions or harmful ways). If you say that people can not do it, we will have the same thing that in church when priests can do anything and people can say nothing about it.
“If one is really serious about attaining Nibbāna as quickly as possible one should take the robe immediately” – Another delusion is that people who have the first strong spike of positive experiences can not suddenly change their life, get the robe, and become monks – they will become depressed once that first positive experience vanishes and they start chasing it again without realizing the reason behind it (which can be done while being lay), so suggesting people that they should give up everything and leave everything behind to pursue is delusional and idealistic which will harm a person in the process which will harm their practice. For most modern people the best option is to have a comfortable place to practice and study Dhamma, work that can sustain the means for it and without overloading. There was a good book about “free time”, I forgot the name of it but “free time” in ancient and medieval times was a luxury for only those with the highest social standing, every other person worked early to night without much breaks or time – every day that why you became a monk, to have time to practice Dhamma. Now people can manage time on their own.
The rest I will not comment on simply as it’s clear to me that you are “Pro-Dhamma” but not knowledgable or experienced in life/practice/Dhamma to become a person who can say something about it besides slogans. I do not mean it in a bad way, it will be a good example for yourself and others to reflect if one is just “pro-Dhamma” or one following the Path of understanding, experience, and rationale of Dhamma in their life.
Downplaying people on forums “you are just people writing on an internet forum” is really bad too. Lal is just a “person writing a blog on the internet” but the impact he had with the site is huge and brings light to real Dhamma for many people. I strongly suggest self-reflection before writing those things and see if there is any basis in those “arguments”
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OK. That is enough for this discussion.
- If there are unresolved Dhamma issues, anyone can ask questions.
- But please stop dragging personalities/institutions into the discussion.
I also disagree with the following statements: “as long as you have not renounced the lay life, you are not in a good position to criticize them” AND ““If one is really serious about attaining Nibbāna as quickly as possible one should take the robe immediately”
We can discuss the above statements (and the following statements I make).
- Becoming a bhikkhu is a personal decision. But bhikkhus represent the Buddha and we should respect them.
- “Sangha” does not mean bhikkhus, but Noble Persons with magga phala. Thus, some bhikkhus and some lay people belong to “Sangha.” The best example of a bhikkhu not belonging to Sangha is Devadatta. The majority of bhikkhus today do not belong to the “Sangha” category. “Bhikkhu Sangha” is the category of Noble Persons who are bhikkhus.
- Anyone should be able to criticize anyone else’s statements, but without being disrespectful. We can ask questions about a concept without talking about a person. If I write something wrong, please feel free to point it out. Anyone can make mistakes. Only a Buddha would not make a mistake.
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