[sybe07]

Stupid question maybe, but at times these questions and doubts trouble my mind.

i read that what we call ‘a person’ or ‘a being’ consists of five khandha’s. Apart from those khandha’s there is not ‘a person’ or ‘a being’, like apart from the wheels, the chassis, the windows etc. there is no ‘car’ to be found.

I also read that after parinibbana these khandha’s do not continue to arise. They end, and no newly formed khandha’s arise. So, apparantly ‘a person’ does not arise anymore.

I feel a little bit frightened by that idea.

It seems like after parinibbana nothing is felt, because vedana does not arise. Nothing is remembered, recognised, perceived etc. because sanna does not arise. Nothing is sensed, no visual form, colour, sounds, touches, dhamma’s because the six kinds of sense-consciousness do not arise. There is no sense of a body or bodily formations because rupakhandha does not arise anymore. There is no volitional activity because sankhara’s do not arise.

But what is? is there something?

Is there some sense of individuality left after parinibbana or does everything just end like a fire that ends when fuel ends?

Is there a thought of “I will do this or that”, after parinibbana?

Is there some community of individuals who attained parinibbana who are enjoying themselves not in this world?

Is it some ghost-like existence? Like a dream-state in which one experiences a sense of individuality and also a surrounding?

Or does parinibbana mean that one dissolves or becomes one with some kind of allness or dhammakaya, like some people seem to suggest.

In short, what are we doing?

Siebe

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Siebe,

When a person enters Parinibbana, it is not the end of the being. But an end to a process. A process whereby this being is reborn over and over again has ceased forever. Thought, feeling, perception, and consciousness will cease without remainder. Kind of like extinction. The reason why it is so horrifying to most people is because we cling on to our life so dearly so much so that we are afraid of losing the ability to cognise things.

Due to the notion of a self, we developed passion. And because of passion, we think there is a self. I would think this is the Paticca Samuppada steps ‘sankhara paccaya vinnana’ and ‘vinnana paccaya sankhara’, respectively. A self is an artefact of our consciousness, just like the concept of time. An enlightened being who had passed into Parinibbana would be timeless. He would have attained infinite steady state of bliss where there is no concept of time. In Parinibbana, there is no arising of consciousness. And since there is no consciousness in Parinibbana, there is no concept of time.

A true buddhist should not view rebirth as a continuation of life. Instead, he or she should view rebirth as a perpetuation of death. We are born only to die. Whatever worldly things we wish to accomplish in this life, we had done that countless number of times deep in our past lives. One really needs to grasp the concept of infinity. I think it helps tremendously and I managed to debunk many myths and superstitions just by contemplating on infinity.

Which brings me to a question – Does the Universe serve any purpose? :)

[sybe07]

Hi Johnny_Lim, thanks.

So the view is not right that apart from the khandha’s there is not such a thing as ‘a being’? You belief there is? So, when the khandha’s end, that being does not end?

I mostly read the sutta’s, but i feel this is not the message of the sutta’s. What can be designated ‘a being’ if this being is without body, without experiences, without feelings, without volitional activity, without anything which consitutes ‘a being’? How can something like that be called ‘a being’?

I also do not understand, when parinibbana is not the end of a being, why is the Buddha not clear about this in the sutta’s? I have not read this until now. Do you know these?

I know sutta’s in which the Buddha does NOT affirm, for example, that the Tathagata exist after death, nor does he denie. He does not affirm he does not exists etc. If it would be true that a being survives parinibbana i do not understand that this is not often mentioned in the sutta-pitaka.

In the end, would buddhism not be some kind of eternalism when a being survives parinibbana? In what sense does that ‘being’ differ from an eternal soul?

kind regards,
Siebe

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Siebe,

We are born into this world due to causes and conditions. When the conditions are available for us to perpetuate suffering, we will continue to suffer. When the conditions for us to enter Parinibbana are met, we will cease to exist anywhere in the 31 realms. Thinking there is a being to be had is just understanding existence in conventional truth. You can pose rhetorical questions to yourself like “Who am I?”, “Who is studying Dhamma?”, “Who is feeling the pain and joy?”…The only perfect answer to these questions is given by the Buddha, where He said we are born of our own kamma, bearer of our own kamma, creator of our own kamma, heir of our own kamma. Buddha’s message already told us we exist as a result of our own kamma. I believe the Buddha did not want to affirm existence or non-existence because it will only make our minds more confused and vexed.

[sybe07]

Hi Johnny_Lim,

Do you really belief extinction is a nobel goal?

I belief buddha-dhamma is something positive, but i cannot see extinction, to vanish like a extinguished flame at parinibbana, is something positive.

i find this very depressing, no gain, also very ungrateful.

Suffering can be bad, oke, people can committ suicide, but even that feels better then conciously working on your own extinction and pretending to do this is a nobel goal. In my mind it feels very dark-minded. Not positive at all. It even feels immoral to act this way.

Is this really buddha-dhamma?

I also cannot understand that Lal sees it as nobel goal to extinguish like a flame.

Siebe

[Johnny_Lim]

Well Siebe, extinction is better than going to woeful planes, right? All good things must come to an end.

[Lal]

Siebe said: “I also do not understand, when parinibbana is not the end of a being, why is the Buddha not clear about this in the sutta’s?”

I know that you have read a lot of suttas. So. it is surprising that you have not grasped the critical aspects of them. You seem to tend to read suttas and try to ignore the important parts of them OR may be the translations are very bad.

For example, in the Jata Sutta (SN 7.6), it says: “..Yattha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhati” which means that nama rupa are removed without trace for one upon Parinibbana. Nama rupa are the combination of the five aggregates. When they are removed cittas cease to exist.

In the Ratana Sutta (Snp 2.1): “Nibbanti dhīrā yathāyaṃ
padīpo” which means “An Arahant goes out like a lamp goes out”.

I don’t remember the name of another sutta, where the Buddha asks Vaccagotta what happens to a fire when it is extinguished: “Does it go to the North or South? Can you say where it is gone?”. It just does not exist any more.

There are many suttas that discuss Nibbana along those lines.

It is a good idea to read relevant posts at the site before asking questions. Then one can point to a given bullet # and question if it is not not clear. Nibbana is discussed at various levels (simple to deep) at:
Nibbana

By the way, Johnny_Lim has done a good job above in trying to express the main idea. But Nibbana is a deep concept. The last post in the above link discusses how the Buddha said Nibbana exists, but not in this world.

[sybe07]

I understand that the five khandha’s do not arise anymore after Parinibbana.

But what does that mean, knowing the Budddha said in his life as a teachers that we are in this life not the khandha’s?

He transmitted this important message to his students. We, as his students, must see it as it actually is: “this experienced body and rupa’s, these feelings, these perceptions, these mental formations, these six kinds of conciousnesses, that’s not mine, not who i am, not myself”.

I belief, this includes also all those abhidhamma stuf about citta’s, citta vitthi’s, cetasika’s, rupa’s, gati’s, anusaya, cravings etc. It does not deal with our real identity. Cetasika’s are just mental formations, not mine, not I, not myself. This is also true for rupa’s, and citta’s and gatis etc.

The basic misunderstanding is to treat all this stuff as mine, as who we are, as ourselves. Does the Budddha say we are all that stuff? No.
One must not loose oneself in the images in the mirror. All this stuff is image in the mirror.

An unenlightend person who has not seen as it actually is that he/she is not the khandha’s, keeps identifying, for example with conciousness. He/she lives with the belief (unware that it exist in his/her mind), ‘i experience Visuals, smells etc, so i am’. Or, ‘i experience a body, so i exist’ etc.
This process is constantly going on, unconsciously. Most people do not know.

This is a deeply ingrained habit. Peope do not know it is there, but i have seen it. It is at the basis of attachment, grasping.

One who beliefs that his/her existence (“I am, I exist”) depends on the experience of a body, of feelings, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness, of whatever kind of experience, for such a person, cessation becomes fearful.

In fact this is the real obstacle we have to face while doing breath-meditation. Formations can cease, and we must see this with wisdom, not fear it, and that is by knowing whatever can cease, that we are not. But this is not easy because it is against our deeply ingrained habit.

“I am not the khandha’s”, became sure for the Buddha due meditation. For him it was no theory, no idea, thought, but an existential fact.

Did he had another, alternative, identity-view? I do not belief in the sense of a new identity-view.

From the first to the last breaktrough in Buddha_Dhamma, it is all about identity! The first breaks down identity-views, sakkaya-ditthi, and the last breaks down the conceit ‘I am’.

Anyway, because we are in this same life not the khandha’s, what does the ending of the khandha’s mean for us at Parinibbana? Is it is really our extinction or just the extinction of things we never were at the first place?

I feel, first of all we have to know who we really are, now, in this live and see this in a completely non-intellectual, non-reasoning, not contemplating way.

Siebe

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Siebe,

I think you are right on the identity crisis that every sentient being is going through. We tend to cling on to the notion of a self via the workings of our 5 khandhas. I liken life as a continuous stream of consciousness, something like lighting up a long series of candles. The person lighting up the candle is actually a prison himself! He borrowed the fire from the preceding candle and light up the current candle (current life). Can we say that this fire is different from the preceding one? No, I don’t think so. Neither can we say they are the same. Accompanying the borrowed fire is a transference of a set of kammic energies that needs to be spent when the right conditions are met. But why does this person keeps on lighting up the candles? Because he thinks that it is worthwhile doing just that. Learning Dhmma helps us see through the peril of staying in the sansara.

Both our mental and physical bodies are sankata of our past kamma. First, let’s talk about this physical body. There are uncountable number of cells that made up this physical body. The white blood cells in our body are helping us to fight viruses and bacteria without us telling them to. The enzymes in our body will automatically disintegrate our body when we become a corpse. Isn’t that amazing? It does not matter whether we acknowledge their presence or not. The more I think of it, the more I felt that it is not just about ‘my self’ or me anymore. This physical body is just like a conglomerate. We are the boss sitting high on top of the organisation and there are many employees whom we do not even know personally. But does that imply that the organisation will collapse? There is a system in place to ensure that the modus operandi of the body will continue to function for as long as our kammic energy allows.

Next, let’s talk about thoughts and emotions. There are times we cannot control our thoughts and emotions. They are like advertisements which we did not subscribe but are shoved right into our face. I like the term uncontrolled mental outflows to reiterate this point. Having this mental and physical bodies in this life, we just have to face the fact that they have to go through their natural stages of arising and perishing. It is a way which nature imparts vipaka onto us. Energies have to be unleashed. They just cannot be stopped. I believe the Buddha’s teaching to disregard the workings of the 5 khandhas as our self is not just a strategy to help us cut our defiled habitual tendencies, but also a way to keep us from generating more sankhara to perpetuate suffering. I see it as a doctrine to help us avert the identity crisis (illusion) which if left unmanaged, would entrap us further in this never-ending sansaric journey.

[sybe07]

Hi Johnny_Lim, i can agree that Dhamma does learn us to see the big picture of the hardships of continuing rebirth-proces. But what i, at the moment, do not belief, is that Buddha-Dhamma is some kind of nihilism, which aims only at ending rebirth-process, going out like a flame…pffff….nothing remaining. Sorry, i cannot see this as a nobel goal. I repeat myself.

I also do not belief it is a doctine or a strategy of the Buddha to teach we are not the khandha’s. It is like it actually is. That is core message of the Budddha, i belief.

And knowing this, really seeing this that we are not the khandha’s, is the essence of stream-entry.

But unenlightend mind lacks this kind o understanding. That’s why there is so much suffering. As long as we see in our own life the tendencies to I-making (i am the body, feeling, i am what i experience, in short identification-tendency) and as long there is mine-making (‘whatever i experience is mine’) there is no stream-entry yet. That’s what i have understood from studying the sutta’s. Stream-entry is therefor an enormous breaktrough in our understanding of ourselves. Ending sakkaya ditthi in a practical sense means one attains that kind of understanding which eliminates identification with whatever one experiences and ends the tendency to see that as ‘mine’, mine experiences. It does not end the overall impression “I am”.

But to return to your point, i do not belief it is only a doctrine that we are not the khandha’s. For the enlightend mind this is prooven to be truthful, as it really is. That’s what i belief.

Siebe

[Lal]

In his reply to Johhny_Lim, Siebe said:” Do you really belief extinction is a noble goal?”

This is a common fear that many people have, including prominent “secular Buddhists” like Stephen Batchelor and Ven. Analayo. And that is why one should not even contemplate on attaining the Arahanthood. The danger is that when one has these “mundane ideas” about Nibbana and keep generating sankhara about their “pet theories” those are actually akusala thoguths, since they are generated with micca ditthi.

One should always start at the base level, and this is why I recommend those with doubts about laws of kamma, Nibbana, rebirth, etc to start at the first sections of the “Living Dhamma” section.

In case you don’t read those posts, the base level is where one sees the “peace of mind” by staying away from dasa akusala (including micca ditthi). Then one’s mind gets “purified enough” to comprehend the anicca nature and begins to understand the possible unimaginable suffering in the apayas, and thus become a Sotapanna Anugami. As one makes an effort, one will get to the Sotapanna stage.

Even at the stage, one should not think about Nibbana being “extinction” and worry about that. The next step is to be released from the kama loka. That itself is a difficult one, since we are so enamored by the perceived sense pleasures. One really needs to see the suffering hidden in those sense pleasures AND also see the benefits of niramisa sukha that arises when one starts to slowly give up sense pleasures. Those who have developed even anariya jhanas should have a good idea why that niramisa sukha (or jhanic pleasures) are much better than sense pleasures.

It is only at the Anagami stage that one should seriously think about the Arahanthood, or “extinction”. Only when one gets to this stage that one can beginning to see the benefits of completely getting out of this world of 31 realms.

By the way Siebe, you seem not to read the links that I recommend. When someone has strong ditthis (views), one only SEES what one wants to see, and do not even want to sincerely try to read and understand what others suggest. There is nothing I can do about that.

I do not want anyone to take my word; I only would like one to read what I suggest and see whether it makes sense, for their sake. I will write these replies (when I have time) as long as I believe that they will at least help some people. I know there are a lot of people with this “fear of extinction”. They really should not focus on Nibbana, because it is a waste of time. It is wiser to follow the Path gradually, step-by-step.

It is like, when one starts a thousand-mile journey on foot, one should not think about the enormity of that task, and get discouraged. The task is accomplished by taking one step at a time.

Siebe also said: “I also cannot understand that Lal sees it as nobel goal to extinguish like a flame.”.

These are the words of the Buddha, not mine. Didn’t he say that “My Dhamma is not like any other that the world has seen (pubbe ananussutaesu dhammesu..?”.

One cannot take comfort in one’s theory by incorrectly translating Buddha’s words; that is just micca ditthi, and actually blocking one’s own Path.

But how can one figure out whether I am translating the suttas correctly? That can be done by looking for any inconsistencies within those several hundred posts at the website. I have illustrated this for other people’s wrong translations. I discuss this in the newest post: “Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means“.

If it is any consolation, the Buddha also stated that there is an actual “ayatana” called Nibbana. It is just that it cannot be expressed in terms of words we have in this world; see, “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World“.
That “tad ayatana” or the “perfect place” is reached only by completely removing the dasa samyojana that bind us to this world of 31 realms: Three are removed at the Sotapanna stage, two removed at the Anagami stage, and the last five removed at the Arahant stage. That is why it is a step-by-step process.

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal,

I once read that the example of a flame was in India a well-known example or simile of an agitated state. I also think this is a very beautiful simile. A flame is, as it were, trying to escape the wood, but it is imprisoned, bounded to that wood. You see its fettered state. It is not free and very agitated it seems in its attempts to escape.

Nibbana is not the exstinguishing of this fire or flame, but it is seen as the state where the flame becomes free from the wood.

Something like this you also seem to say (at least i understood it that way). You say…” Thus an Arahant will not be reborn in “this material world” of 31 realms (see “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma”), i.e., one attains Parinibbana. He/she is simply “gone” from “this world” of 31 realms”.
“The suffering stops permanently. The mind become PERMANENTLY pure and be detached permanently from any type of physical body, dense or fine”.

Nibbāna – Is it Difficult to Understand?

So, maybe i understand this wrong, but i understood this in the sense that the mind survives parinibbana and will after death not find any physical, body, dense or fine. So the mind becomes totally free. That’s what i read.

But, apparantly that is not what you mean with above statement? all ends? Nothing remains after Parinibbana, like an extinguished fire?

By the way, I read the links you recommand, but i have ofcourse my own understanding of Buddha-Dhamma too. The translatons i use or post are not mine. I cannot Judge your translations are right, but i have trust in your work.

Siebe

[Lal]

Siebe quotes me from a post at the website: ““The suffering stops permanently. The mind become PERMANENTLY pure and be detached permanently from any type of physical body, dense or fine”.

Yes. That is correct.

The key point is that for any living being in this world, ALL five aggregates MUST be there at given time (except for the asanna realm and when an Arahant is in Nirodha Samapatti).

The Buddha specifically said that there can be no “migration” of the vinnana to a new bhava unless accompanied by the rupakkhandha. I will find the sutta reference and place here when I find it.

Upon Parinibbana, the vinnanakkhandha is terminated; it cannot grasp a new bhava. Thus, there is no rebirth anywhere in the 31 realms.

This is what is embodied in the Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana: Kamma Viññāna and Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana

This is a key point. Thank you, Siebe, for pointing it out.

For a living being in the Asanna realms, there are no nama khandhas (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana), and the life in the physical body maintained by kammic energy (just like in nirodha samapatti). When the kammic energy is terminated, a vinnana for a new bhava is grasped for that Asanna being.

[sybe07]

Lal, just to be sure…when an arhant dies does the mind survive death, even when there is no rebirth somewhere in the 31 realms? Is there in some way a continuing existence? Or does at the moment of parinibbana nothing continue? This is still not clear to me yet (maybe i do not know the concepts well enough), i just ask.

are you refering to MN102§7 (from Bodhi’s translation):
“That any recluse or brahmin could say: “Apart from material form, apart from feeling, apart from perception,apart from formations, I shall describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and re-appearance, its growth,increase, and maturation” – that is impossible”

kind regards,
Siebe

[Lal]

Siebe said: “are you refering to MN102§7 (from Bodhi’s translation):
“That any recluse or brahmin could say: “Apart from material form, apart from feeling, apart from perception,apart from formations, I shall describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and re-appearance, its growth,increase, and maturation” – that is impossible”.

Yes. Thank you for saving my time looking for a reference sutta. Here is the Pali verse from that sutta (Pañ­catta­ya Sutta, Majjhima Nikāya 102):

“aham aññatra rūpā, aññatra vedanāya, aññatra saññāya, aññatra saṅkhārehi, viññāṇassa āgatiṃ vā gatiṃ vā cutiṃ vā upapattiṃ vā vuddhiṃ vā virūḷhiṃ vā vepullaṃ vā paññapessāmī’ti—netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati..”.

There are several suttas with the same or similar phrase.

Siebe said: “..just to be sure…when an arhant dies does the mind survive death, even when there is no rebirth somewhere in the 31 realms? Is there in some way a continuing existence? Or does at the moment of parinibbana nothing continue?”

We can get an answer by looking at a fundamental concept in Abhidhamma:

There are three fundamental entities (paramatta dhamma) in our world of 31 realms: Citta, cetasika, rupa.

Then there is Nibbana, the fourth paramatta dhamma, and Nibbana does not belong to this world.

So, what happens at the Parinibbana (death) of an Arahant is that all three fundamental entities associated with the world of 31 realms cease to exist, and Nibbana is attained. Mind becomes free of rupa and is instantaneously released from the 31 realms.

We do not know what exists in Nibbana, because citta, cetasika, rupa,(and thus our types of feelings, perceptions, etc) do not exist in Nibbana.

But as the Buddha clearly stated, there a “tad ayatana” or a “perfect place” called Nibbana, and it is eternal, and “blissful” (Nibbanic bliss). Again, that Nibbanic bliss cannot be explained with our terminology. It is definitely outside the 31 realms. So, nothing continues IN THIS WORLD. That is all the Buddha has said about Nibbana (as far as I understand), and thus that is all I can say.

[sybe07]

Thanks a lot Lal. If mind at parinibbana becomes free of rupa and is instantaniously released from the 31 realm, for me, that does not sound as going out like a lamp or flame or extinction. Formulated this way it sounds like a really nobel goal.

Lal, do you belief it is possible that one can deliberately come back to ‘this world, the 31 realms of samsara, while one is totally freed from samsara, to help other beings?

kind regards,
Siebe

[Lal]

Siebe said: “..do you believe it is possible that one can deliberately come back to ‘this world, the 31 realms of samsara, while one is totally freed from samsara, to help other beings?”

This is a totally absurd idea in Mahāyāna Buddhism: That past Buddhas can come back to this world.

Once liberated from this world of 31 realms there is no coming back. At Parinibbana, nama and rupa are totally separated (nama rupa paricceda), and that is not a reversible process.

From the discussion that we have had on this topic, it is very clear that it is the defiled vinnana that is responsible for keeping one in this world. A Buddha (or an Arahant) will NEVER re-generate a defiled vinnana in order to REMAIN in this world.

It is only because we have a defiled vinnana that we are so reluctant (and even afraid) to be liberated from this suffering-filled world. This is especially because we are not aware of the unimaginable suffering that awaits in the apayas. Even in this world, how many people commit suicide because they just cannot bear the suffering (mental or physical), including some famous people with all the money in the world?

One can get a vague idea of the suffering in the lower realms in the apayas, by looking at the animal suffering. How many fish die of unimaginable suffering once hauled in to boats when caught in nets. They could be there for hours, writhing in pain, before dying. When a wolf pack attacks a deer, for example, they don’t kill and eat; they eat the flesh while the animal is still alive. Poeple tend to enjoy National Geographic videos where a tiger chases a deer and eats it alive. Most people are not aware that they themselves could be subjected to similar situations in future births.

[sybe07]

Oke thanks.

kind regards
Siebe

[Lal]

I am thinking about closing out this topic. It was a good discussion and contains a lot of useful information. If there are no more questions, I will close it in a week a so.

Of course, it will remain on the forum list, so that anyone can come back and read. Also, if at any time, another relevant point on this topic is needed to be discussed, I can re-open the discussion. Please send me the question directly to [email protected].

Thank you, Siebe, for staring this discussion. Thanks and much merits to all who participated.

[Author]

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