[firewns]

In the post “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāshtaka“, it was mentioned that avijja and tanha can give rise to the eight units of suddhastaka. Do they still do so continuously in this present day, although in very minute quantities?

Since all eight units of a suddhastaka must be present in a suddhastaka, can we use this principle to state that avijja paccaya tanha and tanha paccaya avijja? Must the steps and factors of paticca samuppada arise in the same order either forwards or backwards, or can certain steps be skipped, i.e. in between avijja and tanha, there are sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa, and vedana.

I ask this thinking that in order for either avijja or tanha to create a suddhastaka, it must first give rise to the other, i.e. avijja must give rise to tanha and tanha must give rise to avijja. This is in order to create all eight units of a suddhastaka. Am I right in thinking this?

Thank you very much in advance for your answers to my questions.

[firewns]

Perhaps more clearly, can avijja paccaya tanha by doing so without the involvement of sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa and vedana? Can tanha also paccaya avijja likewise?

[firewns]

To be more specific, I am referring to the part under #8: ‘Therefore, four basic units of patavi, āpo, thejo, vāyo arise due to avijjā, and the other four of varna, gandha, rasa, and oja arise due to tanhā….These eight can never be detected in isolation; thus they are called “avinibbhoga rupa“. They always rise together; all eight are there in any suddhāshtaka. The relative “amounts” of each component can vary and thus some suddhāshtaka can be dominated by one component, for example. Even then, all eight are present to some extent. This is tantamount to saying that wherever there is avijjā there is tanhā, and vice versa.’

Please also let me know if I should have posted this in another forum.

Thank you for your help.

[Lal]

This is the right forum for your questions.

Yes. Paticca Samuppada (PS)is very complex. Avijja and tanha go together. They are both removed at the Arahant phala moment.

You asked: “Perhaps more clearly, can avijja paccaya tanha by doing so without the involvement of sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa and vedana? ”

1. The key point is that the PS cycle runs from “avijja paccaya sankhara” to “upadana paccaya bhava” step in the suddhashtaka-generating step.

– Within there, many complex inter-connecting steps can occur, like “sankhara paccaya avijja”
– All this happens within a fraction of a second, in javana citta in a citta vithi.

2. That “bhava energy” created up to that point can now bring vipaka EITHER at that moment OR at a later time, starting from “bhava paccaya jati“.

– In particular in a “uppatti PS”, the vipaka may come much later, even in a future birth. So, the “bhava paccaya jati” step comes later.
– In pavutti PS, the results appear at that time. For example, when one is drinking alcohol at a party, one is generating kaya, vaci, and mano sankhara related to that and may end up in the “drunkard bhava” and a “drunkard jati” (become drunk) at that time.

3. This is a highly-condensed answer to your question. It is probably not necessary to get into such details, but I mentioned it because you specifically asked. Sometimes, one needs to get to deep Abhidhamma to explain subtle points.
4. It is enough for most purposes to understand that a particular bhava (and jati) arises due to the cultivation of certain type of (abhi)sankhara, based on one’s level of avijja and gati.

– For example, births in the apayas are due to the cultivation of apunnabhisankhara or immoral deeds/speech, and thoughts. Births in a rupavacra brahma realm is due to the cultivation of rupavacara jhanas, which is a type of punnabhisankhara.
– Both are done with avijja, but at very different levels.

[Author]

Posts