[LayDhammaFollower]

I have been reading the website puredhamma for while now and thanks to all the ariyas so far in history for preserving and spreading Dhamma. Thanks to them, the magga phala is still accessible to laity and monks alike.

After understanding basic message of buddha dhamma and reading many posts and discussions on this website, I have came to realise, that in order to get to higher magga phala While living as lay, Lifestyle must be changed.

The foremost factor here would be that one must limit all sources of sensory stimulation through sense restraint.

Keeping above principle in mind, I have decided to go “all in” on path and abstain from spending any time on TV shows, Music, media, news papers and other such inessential activities.

To consume food after strict reflection.
To eat food for getting rid of of food.

To put maximum efforts to stop all forms of dasa akusālā, especially frivolous speech.

To live life of pristine pure Celibacy.
(In thoughts, words, deeds.)

Buddha has repeatedly said that “ethics and training” is not core of dhamma, they are NECESSARY conditions BUT NOT SUFFICIENT.

Paññā is only sufficient factor for magga phala.

Until this point I was also not serious in meditation, But, that is really necessary for higher progress.

I have already experienced so much cooling down (niveema), that it seems that I have no defilements. But, that is ofcourse not the case. They are not completely gone ,they have became very thin, I have failed to caught them. Sati must be developed to high degree to caught them.

So, I have also decided to follow strict formal meditation practice, to not sleep until that is done everyday.

We have done everything to solve problems which cannot be actually solved, in this long beginning less saṁsāra, while avoiding the problem which can actually be solved and would solve other problems with it as well.

I don’t think doing what we have done in all previous Lives will make even ounce of difference to our fate.

In addition, All eight worldly concerns of (pleasure/pain, losses/gains, respect/disrespect, fame/defame) are utterly utterly meaningless, baseless and absurd.

When someone is king, people honour that being. When that being becomes a peasent in future, that being is treated mostly without any respect whatsoever. All judgements made by anariya are based on their limited single life perspective and their assumption that there is some permanent entity who is king/peasent.

We should really respect all beings equally. None is really special in any sense in saṁsāra. We as sons and daughters of buddha should be the last ones to make such an arbitrary judgement.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Gad

[Lal]

Wise thoughts and reflections, LayDhammaFollower!

1. There is no “person” going through the rebirth process (in the sense of a “permanent soul”).

2. What we experience now is vipaka of deeds (kamma) done in the past. Is the “experiencer” the same as the “doer”?
– We cannot pick one of those two answers. Since “we” keep changing, we cannot say “yes.” On the other hand, “me/I” AT the PRESENT MOMENT has evolved from past actions, and thus we cannot say “no” either. The key is to realize that as long as we have the wrong view (diṭṭhi) and perception (saññā) that “this world can be beneficial for ‘me'” suffering cannot be stopped.

3. As long as past actions CAN bring their results (vipaka), suffering will continue. Those conditions arise due to lobha, dosa, and moha (ignorance of the Noble Truths about this world.)

4. We can stop those past actions (kamma) from bringing their results (vipaka). That is the key. That is done by losing the craving for worldly things. That requires understanding Buddha Dhamma (Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana) AND living according to Dhamma (ariyakanta sila) to lose cravings for worldly things.

5. The suffering (not only in this life, but especially in the apayas) is real (we can surely see the suffering in the animal realm), and our current actions can stop future suffering. That is the bottom line.

[LayDhammaFollower]

Yes, Lal.

Thanks for the reminder about sakkāya diṭṭhi, Lal.

All that you said above is perfectly understood.

nothing is permanently existent and nothing is permanently non existent. Cause and effect are not completely same and not completely different. They are connected. Effects only and only manifest when there are both necessary and sufficient conditions present for that effect to manifest.

King who becomes monkey, they are not same and they are not different. As long as causes are there NamaRupa/six senses/pañcakKhanda arises.

I think, I should have used the word “lifestream” instead of “being” above.

Root cause are six. This root causes are removed by removal of avijjā about 4NT and vipallāsa about tilakkhana.

I have repeatedly used the self reference “I”, “Me” etc in conventional sense only. Those references cannot be completely avoided.

It is perfectly clear to me about absence of permanent entity/soul/essence/self etc.

As you have said, The “FEELING” of self exist as long as there is Avijjā.

Also, The Suffering about apāyā, value of human bhava etc too.

Also, I have well understood your very very detailed analysis of sakkāya, PañcaUpādānaKhandha and sakkāya diṭṭhi on website. The nihilistic and eternalist view, “me/mine” view, taking pañcakKhanda as fruitful etc. I have realised those connections.

I no longer confuse dukkhā with mundane dukha.

I have understood the wider worldview of Buddha of 31 realms.

I have understood 4NT in context of 12 ayatana and in terms of 31 realms and humongous birth rate in apāyā.

Also the important point that we cannot avoid many kamma vipakā despite doing our best to stop them, because, necessary conditions for their manifestation exists IN THIS LIFE.

But, we can cutoff the conditions of future suffering filled rebirth.

I don’t understand very complex details about two types of NamaRupa but I did understood the basic connecting point between namarupa and sakkāya diṭṭhi, how kamma viññāṇa is bridge between mind and matter.

Bhavanga, temporary bhava,
Connection between iddapaccaya and uppati PS cycles.

Thanks to your elephant in room posts.

[LayDhammaFollower]

Lal, I hope that I didn’t missed your point?

Just wanted to share the decision about lifestyle change after the realisation occurred as per your comment that some elephants must be deprived by not giving them food for time until they’re very weak.

[Lal]

Your post was perfectly fine. It shows that you have a good understanding.

Regarding: “I don’t understand very complex details about two types of NamaRupa but I did understood the basic connecting point between namarupa and sakkāya diṭṭhi, how kamma viññāṇa is bridge between mind and matter.”
– You grasped the most crucial aspect, i.e., that kamma viññāṇa is the bridge between mind and matter.
– The longer one engages in abhisankhara formation (whether vaci or kaya abhisankhara), the more kamma viññāṇa one accumulates, generating “namarupa” in mind (with “vinnana paccaya namarupa”). Those three processes (“avijja paccaya sankhara,” sankhara paccaya vinnana,” and “vinnana paccaya namarupa”) may go back and forth uncountable times, generating “namarupa” or “kamma bija” that get deposited in vinnana dhatu.
– That is what powers future rebirths at cuti-patisandhi moments, taking one of such kamma bija and transforming it into a manomaya kaya with several suddhatthaka (hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa).

Your last statement: “Just wanted to share the decision about lifestyle change after the realisation occurred as per your comment that some elephants must be deprived by not giving them food for time until they’re very weak” captures the way to implement that understanding.
– Food for vinnana is vaci and kaya abhisankhara!
– The key is to stop generating vaci and kaya abhisankhara by “engaging with a mind-pleasing arammana.” That will weaken such kamma viññāṇa and eventually eliminate them. P.S. By the way, vaci abhisankhara (just talking to oneself OR speaking out) is as bad as engaging in bodily actions with kaya abhisankhara.
– The Buddha used different terminology for that process: Anapanasati, Satipatthana, Indriya Bhavana, etc. Ariyakanata Sila is the same thing.

[LayDhammaFollower]

thank you taking time to write a reply.

========================

you said,

That is what powers future rebirths at cuti-patisandhi moments, taking one of such kamma bija and transforming it into a manomaya kaya with several suddhatthaka (hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa).

Lal, As mentioned earlier, I recently read the whole “word by word translation of Tipitaka”.
especially the brilliant points in whole “Paticca Samuppada during lifetime” section.

They are extremely insightful sections.

One thing which was new to me was learning about bhavanga or “temporary bhava” during every jati/bhava. how that same process also happens at the end of current bhava.

it is unbelievable! (not literally, just very strange.)

How an extremely small bit of matter powered by kammic energy can create so much suffering.

I have few points to discuss about those posts;

1. looking from POV of bhavanga, sottapana has removed all apayagami bhavanga. because all citta/cetasika corresponding to those strengths are removed/reduced in javana. right?

2. as we progress more and more bhavanga are removed, becuase there are less and less arammana with which we get stuck via tanha.

3. Arhant cannot get into any bhavanga ever again. even at the time when buddha died, many cried except arahants as far as I know.

====================

about the second part;

you said,

Food for vinnana is vaci and kaya abhisankhara!
– The key is to stop generating vaci and kaya abhisankhara by “engaging with a mind-pleasing arammana.” That will weaken such kamma viññāṇa and eventually eliminate them. P.S. By the way, vaci abhisankhara (just talking to oneself OR speaking out) is as bad as engaging in bodily actions with kaya abhisankhara.

understood.

as you said, we should stop abhisankhara with force firstly.
simultaneously, we can remove the root on which they grow, which is removing three san, right?

And ofcourse, sancetana will be automatically adressed during this process.

And sense restrain will take care of food coming through contact, isn’t it?

We must deprive fire (of jati) by reducing/stopping the throwing of wood logs (through four foods) in it and also stop the supply of oxygen (three san), right?

[Gad]

3. Arhant cannot get into any bhavanga ever again. even at the time when buddha died, many cried except arahants as far as I know. 

The anagamis to. Sadness and sorrow are eradicate in Anagami state

 

[Lal]

I am glad that you understood that section. If one understands that, one can eliminate Sakkaya Ditthi, as you seem to have.

1. You wrote: “How an extremely small bit of matter powered by kammic energy can create so much suffering.”

– Yes. Many people may not fully understand how small a suddhatthaka is. It is much smaller than an atom in modern science. Yet, the “seat of the mind,” hadaya vatthu, is just a single suddhatthaka energized by kammic energy. Our huge physical body is no different from a huge tree trunk (i.e., lifeless) when that gandhabba with the hadaya vatthu leaves (at Death or in an NDE/OBE).

2. You asked: “1. looking from POV of bhavanga, sottapana has removed all apayagami bhavanga. because all citta/cetasika corresponding to those strengths are removed/reduced in javana. right?”

– You mean “temporary bhavanga,” not the “bhavanga” one is born with. Yes. One can get into an “immoral temporary bhavanga” if a tempting arammana comes to mind IF one still has anusaya. So, since a Sotapanna has removed “apayagami anusaya,” their mind will not be tempted by such an arammana and thus will not get into such a “temporary bhavanga.”

2. So, we can revise your #2 as follows: “2. As we progress, the possibility to get into more such “temporary bhavanga” are removed because less and less arammana with which we get stuck via tanha.”
– Here is another way to say the same thing: “As we progress, the possibility of getting into bad gati will be removed because corresponding anusaya will be gone.”

4. You wrote: “And sense restrain will take care of food coming through contact, isn’t it?
We must deprive fire (of jati) by reducing/stopping the throwing of wood logs (through four foods) in it and also stop the supply of oxygen (three san), right?”
– That is exactly right.

[LayDhammaFollower]

Thank you for details.

You said,

If one understands that, one can eliminate Sakkaya Ditthi, as you seem to have.

Yes, I have wrote my experiences in detail under certain thread on this forum. I have been intensely studying this website since last 10 months. Got breakthrough four months ago about THE core of dhamma.

But, there is no way I can prove that to anybody, So, I will refrain from talking anymore about the magga phala or progress. But, I have never been more free from mental Suffering in my life then after that event.

Namo Buddhay ☸️.

[Lal]

You don’t need to prove attaining a magga phala to anyone else, LDF.
– You can verify for yourself, and no one else can confirm or deny that.

Furthermore, different people get rid of sakkaya ditthi in different ways.
– There is a sutta where the Buddha gave an analogy. One time, a bhikkhu went around asking other bhikkhus (who had declared attaining the Sotapanna stage) how to describe the Sotapanna stage. Each one gave different descriptions of the Sotapanna stage.
– That bhikkhu got confused and complained to the Buddha. The Buddha gave an analogy of asking someone to describe a tree that had a unique trunk (black), unique flowers (bright red looking like pieces of red meat), and unique leaves (specific unique shape). Some people would identify the tree as having that unique trunk, some others describe it with flowers or leaves. But they all had seen the tree!
– I don’t remember the name of that sutta.
– P.S. There are two main conclusions reached when one gets to the Sotapanna stage: One would have “seen with wisdom (panna)” that (i) there is no “permanent self” traveling the rebirth process (it happens via Paticca Samuppada), (ii) it is fruitless AND dangerous to be in the rebirth process (because most rebirths are in the apayas).

By the way, here is a post that describes “temporary bhavanga”: “Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained!“

[LayDhammaFollower]

You don’t need to prove attaining a magga phala to anyone else, LDF.
– You can verify for yourself, and no one else can confirm or deny that.

Yes, understood, Lal.

Nice analogy about tree. I am reading about that sutta first time, so unfortunately, I don’t know the reference either. If found, I will post.

I will read the post on bhavanga and bhava.

[Lal]

In my last comment I stated:
“Furthermore, different people get rid of sakkaya ditthi in different ways.
– There is a sutta where the Buddha gave an analogy. One time, a bhikkhu went around asking other bhikkhus (who had declared attaining the Sotapanna stage) how to describe the Sotapanna stage. Each one gave different descriptions of the Sotapanna stage.
– That bhikkhu got confused and complained to the Buddha. The Buddha gave an analogy of asking someone to describe a tree that had a unique trunk (black), unique flowers (bright red looking like pieces of red meat), and unique leaves (specific unique shape). Some people would identify the tree as having that unique trunk, some others describe it with flowers or leaves. But they all had seen the tree!
– I don’t remember the name of that sutta.”

The sutta is “Kiṁsukopama Sutta (SN 35. 245)”

Following is a Wikipedia article on that tree the Buddha referred to:
“Butea monosperma”
– In the above English translation, it is referred to as a “parrot tree.”
– In Sri Lanka, it is called a “කෑල tree,” as the Wikipedia article mentions.
– The article has pictures of it in different seasons.

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