Conscious vs. Subconscious Mind

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    • #48278

      I am confused about Chittada Kaya. I am looking to get the correct answer.

      Conscious Is Vinnana?

      Subconscious Manomaya Kaya.

      But then, what is Chittada Kaya?
      Based on the site’s explanation:
      Therefore, the three types of āhāra for the manōmaya kāya are all consumed by the cittaja kāya. This cittaja kāya is nothing but the stream of thoughts we generate.

      So Cittaja Kaya is Phassa, Cethana, Vinnana?

      We detect “dhammā” with the mana indriya, like pictures with cakkhu indriya or sounds with sōta indriya (ears). But all these sensory inputs are “felt” by the mind  (hadaya vatthu) located close to the physical heart;

      What is the connection between Hadaya Vaththu and Vinnana?

      Please help me to put it all together.

    • #48283

      1. You wrote: “I am confused about Chittada Kaya.” It is written as “Cittaja Kaya” and pronounced “chiththaja kaya.” I will explain that in #7 below.

      2. The mind is “mano.” Thoughts that arise in the mind are sometimes called “citta” (pronounced “chiththa”) and other times vinnana

      • An easy way to remember is as follows. Usually, “citta” means uncontaminated “thoughts.” Usually, “viññāna” is reserved for thoughts contaminated with greed, anger, or ignorance (lobha, dosa, moha).

      3. The physical body (“karaja kaya” or “sarira“) does not generate citta.  The physical body is mostly made from the food we eat; that contribution is “aharaja kaya.” Kammic energy and also thoughts contribute only a little but play important roles; those two contributions are “kammaja kaya” and “cittaja kaya.” 

      4. Overlapping the dense physical body is a “manōmaya kāya,” which is more like an “energy field.” Manōmaya kāya means a “mental body.” This is more important than the physical body since that is where thoughts or citta arise. It is also called “gandhabba.”

      5. Thoughts or cittas have “mental factors” (“cetasika“) embedded. A citta has at least seven cetasika: Phassa (contact);   vēdanā (feeling);  saññā (perception);  cētanā (volition); Ekaggata (One-pointedness) can become Sammā Samādhi;  jivitindriya (life faculty);  manasikāra (memory).

      • When it develops into a contaminated thought, it would have more cetasika, like greed.
      •  “Cetasika (Mental Factors).”
      • You asked: “So Cittaja Kaya is Phassa, Cethana, Vinnana?” So, you can see from the above that cittaja kaya is a part of the physical body and, therefore, not directly related to phassa, cetana, viññāna.

      6. In #4 above, I mentioned that thoughts (cittas) arise in the manomaya kaya (gandhabba.) The “hadaya vatthu” is part of the manomaya kaya, and that is precisely where cittas arise.

      • It may take some time to put all these together. I suggest keeping notes as you read posts. Then, you will be able to see the important connections and how the pieces of the puzzle can be assembled to see a coherent picture.
      • Take the time and read the above-mentioned posts and links in those posts.
      • Reading the first several posts in “Abhidhamma” could be helpful too.

      7. Finally, a special way to write Pali words with the English alphabet was adopted in the 1800s (this is what I mentioned in #1 above). The following two posts are necessary to understand how to write and pronounce Pali words:

      “Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1

      “Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 2


      8. It will take an effort to grasp all these issues. It is best not to rush into it. Take the time to read the posts and take notes while you read them. That will help.

      • You can also use the “Search” box on the top right to locate posts with a specific word.
      • P.S. The following two posts could be helpful with definitions/pronunciations: “Pāli Glossary – (A-K)” and “Pāli Glossary – (L-Z)“.
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    • #48285

      Lal so I have basic understanding but lets take an example so I can understand better. I am trying to grasp this in a simple way so I have some basic knowledge of the mental body.

      Before we go into deepest details lets start with the basic step. So, this would help me understand better. Thank you so much LAL for explaining everything.

      Say X person got attached to a flower in the garden.

      So the 1st process that happens is  Chakkun patichcha rupecha. Uppajjathi chakku vinyanayam”

      So basically vanna rupa is sent to the brain first and then those packet of data sent to hadaya vaththu?
      Then once Hadaya Vaththu receives data where does Chakku Vinnana occur?

      In Hadaya Vattu or Cittaja Kaya?
      If it’s not a huge trouble, can you explain to me with an example like this how everything falls together? I know it is not easy because there are so many things to consider. But I would get a basic understanding.

    • #48292

      OK. Let us consider: “Person X getting attached to a flower in the garden.”

      1. Yes. It is critical to understand the verse “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.” 

      • It can be separated out a bit: “Cakkhuñ ca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ.” It means “when cakkhu and a rupa come into contact cakkhu viññāṇa results.”
      • Here, cakkhu is NOT the eyes; rupa DOES NOT refer to the external rupacakkhu viññāṇa DOES NOT only refer to “seeing” but more than “just seeing” because it may arise with a “certain expectation” (In your suggested example of looking at a flower, it could be to pluck it and take it home.)
      •  The eyes capture an image of the flower. The brain processes that image; during that process, the brain adds one’s likes/dislikes about such a flower to that image. That modified “rupa” is then passed onto the “cakkhu pasada rupa” (or simply “cakkhu“), which is in the manomaya kaya (gandhabba.) Those are the cakkhu and rupa in “Cakkhuñ ca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ.”
      • Because that rupa is NOT a true representation of the flower in the garden. Therefore, the cakkhu viññāṇa arising in the mind sees a somewhat “distorted representation of the flower,” and that is why one’s mind may also generate a “liking for that flower.” Thus, cakkhu viññāṇa is more than just “seeing the flower.” It may prompt one to pluck it and take it home!
      • You can replace the flower with a “more enticing object” (e.g., one’s favorite meal, a car one likes to buy, etc.), and you can see how thoughts of greed arise with a cakkhu viññāṇa.

      2. Those are the basics one must have an idea of. More details in “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna.” Don’t forget to read the links referenced.

      3. Those ideas are necessary to follow the recent posts in the section: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”

      • I don’t know whether you read any of those or whether you can understand them. Those are somewhat deeper aspects of Buddha’s teachings.
      • If your understanding is not at that level, try to understand the post in #2 with the information in #1. Don’t worry. Each person has to start somewhere. I just don’t know the background of a person writing a comment or asking a question.
    • #48314

      Thanks Lal you explained this wonderfully. This helped me to figure out where Yoniso Manasikaraya applies in this process . I will keep reading more and at the same time practice more.  

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