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Hello Lal,
“7. A kamma beeja (seed) is also related to bhava; “
Can you please elaborate on this point?
Samudaya -> Bhava -> Gathi
- The Samudaya is also subject to decay (Vaya). Does that mean the Gathi is also temporary?
- At what point is the Karma Beeja created?
- How is the Karma Beeja related to Asava and Gathi?
Thank you
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Hello rajitha,
rajitha said: ““7. A kamma beeja (seed) is also related to bhava; “
Can you please elaborate on this point?”
A kamma beeja (seed) is created from san. San is what we accumulate “as long as one has any type of gati (bad habits), āsava (cravings), anusaya (tendencies that are dormant just waiting for the right situation), samyojana (fetters/chains to wrong beliefs) and one has the ability to pile up more “san” or to do dasa akusala.” Through these above mentioned mental defilements (gati, asava, etc) one creates these seeds for a new bhava (an upcoming existence). It’s like creating the blueprint for a new home, except there’s no eraser to remove mistakes. Quotes are from Lal’s posts on this site.
rajitha wrote: “Samudaya -> Bhava -> Gathi”
At this point in this long beginningless sansaric journey we’re on, it’s more like a vicious circle without Buddha Dhamma. One’s gathi and asava from past lives give rise to bhava that cause samudaya. “Samudaya (where “samudaya” is “san” + “udaya” where “udaya” means “to arise”) or how rebirth-fuelling “san” (piling up seeds) is the cause for future suffering (dukha). Then, one tries to avoid that suffering and creates another kamma beeja for a future bhava. The only way to get off this roller coaster is eliminate the mental defilements (gati, asava, sanyojana, etc), purify the mind.
rajitha said: “The Samudaya is also subject to decay (Vaya). Does that mean the Gathi is also temporary?”
Kamma beeja last 91 maha kalpa before fizzling out. That’s 91 x an aeon (the life of the Earth or the Solar system (roughly about 10 billion years))! Gathi on the other hand change continuously as one changes one’s habits. If one smokes and gets cancer, good chance that person is going to change that habit.
rajitha said: “At what point is the Karma Beeja created?”
Someone correct me here if I’m wrong, but at the time of intention. And the more one continues down the path of continuously thinking about “it” (whatever “it” may be), to speaking about “it”, to actually doing the “it” with bodily action, one is forming new kamma beeja. And the more one puts energy into “it” via mano, vaci and kaya sankhara, the more potent “it” becomes. “It” is just waiting till the conditions are right for expression.
rajitha said: “How is the Karma Beeja related to Asava and Gathi?”
We do what we crave (asava/likings) according to our built up habits (gathi/character traits) and depending on how immoral (dasa akusala) or moral (dasa kusala) those are, one will either create good kamma beeja seeds or bad kamma beeja seeds.
Check out the Living Dhamma section. It’s a great path to get all these concepts worked out.
Much metta!
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To complement what is said by inflib:
Kamma beeja are are generated in javana citta. That means it is generated while generating abhisankhara.
It is an energy that powers a future bhava. That bhava can be in the immediate future (pavutti paticca samuppada) or in a future life (uppatti paticca samuppada).
For example, when one (say X) is thinking about a bad action done by an enemy, X starts generating bad vaci sankhara, which gets many pavutti paticca samuppada cycles to run through his mind. The more he does this, the more agitated he gets, because he may start remembering past bad actions done by that person too. If someone is watching X, one will be able to see how gets to an “angry bhava” even in a few minutes. X may not be even saying a single word, but his facial expressions will clearly show him getting mad by the minute. The he could be “born in that angry jati” and may say or do something harsh to that enemy.
– So, that is an example of pavutti paticca samuppada.Now, if somehow the situation gets out-of-control and he kills the other person, then that particular action is done with a very potent apunnabhisankhara. The kamma beeja created by those apunnabhisankhara could lead to a rebirth in the future in a “corresponding bhava“, like in a niraya (hell).
– That is an example of a uppatti paticca samuppada.That is a condensed summary. We can discuss in more detail, if there are any questions. For example, “sankhara paccaya vinnana” step gets him to an “angry state of mind”. The that leads to changing of X’s facial expressions with “vinnana paccaya namarupa” and “namarupa paccaya salayatana” steps, where all his six senses are now focusing on generating this “angry bhava“.
It is always to good to analyze various real life situations. That makes these concepts clear.
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infib,
Thanks for the reply.
Kamma beeja last 91 maha kalpa before fizzling out. That’s 91 x an aeon (the life of the Earth or the Solar system (roughly about 10 billion years))!
Yes. that is quite correct. Although my question is on the different life-times and the nature of Asava’s existence.
Gathi I believe is a synonym for Kamma. Kamma Beeja is created when a Kamma Patha, in other words, all 5 actions that complete the Kamma, has been fulfilled.
Asava/Gathi are different facets of the Kamma that is subject is to Vaya (or decay). There are 9 types of Kamma I believe. They must all disintegrate and end.
Then why is Kamma-Kakya (Removal of Kamma forcefully) needed in some instances such as forgiving past deeds?
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Rajitha asked: “Does the Kamma Patha completion have any relevance here – or not needed?”
Kamma patha is completed during a kamma. For example, in killing a living being four conditions must be met to make it a kamma patha: living being exists, plan made to kill it, plan carried out, living being is killed due to that action.
As you can see, many types of abhisankhara (thoughts in the mind) are generated in those steps. All those contribute to the energy in the kamma beeja. As each step is completed, more energy is added. Then when the living being ends dead, the “kamma or the deed is complete” and it becomes a potent kamma beeja.
Even if only the plan is made and it does not proceed beyond that, there will be some kammic consequences for that part.
Rajitha said: “Gathi I believe is a synonym for Kamma.”
That is not correct. Kamma will contribute to making a new gati or to strengthen an existing gati.
For example, a teenager who may not have a “drinking gati” or a “gati for liking to drinking”, may be persuaded by bad friends to start drinking. Those kamma (drinking, thinking about drinking and associated activities), will help build a new gati for the teenager. Of course, it is possible that he may have that gati from previous lives.
– The more the teenager drinks and thinks about associated activities, that gati will grow.Of course, a strong kamma patha like killing a human may start a new gati of a “killer”.
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Hi Lal,
With regard to kamma patha;
The kamma patha that we generally refer to are the kamma patha for the dasa akusala. So for a kamma patha for panathipatha to be completed all those four conditions need to be met. If all those conditions are not met then the kamma of killing an animal will not be created.
For example if one tries to kill an animal but the animal does not die than the panathipatha kamma patha is not created. However with the thoughts, intentions and actions one makes towards killing that animal, kamma is created. So can this mean that different kamma patha are created for/at those different stages of planning etc.?
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Hello Akvan,
“For example if one tries to kill an animal but the animal does not die than the panathipatha kamma patha is not created. However with the thoughts, intentions and actions one makes towards killing that animal, kamma is created. So can this mean that different kamma patha are created for/at those different stages of planning etc.?”Kamma patha basically means “kamma is complete” and the full effect of the kamma will be applied.
– However, each step makes a contribution. So, even if just the first step took place, a vipaka due to that step will apply; but that is not called a “kamma patha“.
– The full effect of the kamma will apply only if all the steps are complete, i.e., only if it becomes a “kamma patha“.For example, suppose one sees a snake and decides to kill it. He gets hold of a heavy stone and crushes the snake. But it turns out that it was a toy snake. So, now only 3 steps are complete; a snake was actually not killed. Thus it does not become a “kamma patha“, but vipaka due to the completed steps will apply.
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Even though it may first appear to be make it more complicated, vinnana is related to kamma beeja. It is the defiled consciousness or vinnana that creates kamma beeja: “Viññāna – What It Really Means“.
This is a critical point that only a few people understand. It is astonishing to see that some equate vinnana with Nibbana.
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Rajitha said: “So one would get killed if the person murdered someone.”
- That does not hold most of the time, even though it could happen.
Rajitha said: “What form would a Vipaka from a Lobha and Moha Kamma take?”
In all three cases, lobha, dosa, moha rooted kamma will lead to kamma vipaka based on one’s intention (types of cetasika involved) and also the javana power in the citta.
This is a good topic to understand the fundamentals of Buddha Dhamma. How kamma lead to kamma vipaka is a mystery to most people. The following a general, simplified analysis of how kamma bring kamma vipaka, which can be very complex in actual details.
First, in terms of paticca samuppada, one’s birth is according one’s gati, and one’s gati are formed according to one’s sankhara (more specifically abhisankhara): “avijja paccaya sankhara” and ‘sankhara paccaya vinnana” leads to a vinnana for a specific kamma, eventually leading to “upadana paccya bhava”, and “bhava paccaya jati”.
Suppose one is contemplating on killing another person in order to marry that person’s wife. He will be doing a lot of vaci sankhara (talking to himself) while planning the murder. That gives rise to an early stage of a kamma beeja that will grow as he keeps planning and keeps thinking about it. Those citta generate kammic energy that will feed that kamma beeja. But significantly higher energy will be added to that kamma beeja at the moment of killing.
Now, he is committing this akusala based on his desire to marry the wife of that person. Even though it is based on greed, the actual action (kamma) involved is killing and it is the dosa cetasika that arises in the killing act.
He has generated a “liking for that killing” and gets attached to that idea: that is the “pati” + “icca”. The vinnana generated is an “hateful vinnana” and the kamma is done with that “hateful vinnana”. Therefore, the bhava (or the kamma beeja) created is according to that, and when that kamma beeja brings vipaka in the future he will get a “matching bhava” and a “matching birth”, i.e., “sama” “uppada“. You can read details in the “Paticca Samuppada” section.
In another example, when one habitually kills animals, those abhisankhara keep contributing to kamma beeja that have “animal killing gati” or “gati for killing”. The actual energy feeding that gati is in the citta that arise while doing that kamma. Even though one may even enjoy killing animals, at the moment of killing, the dosa cetasika arise in the mind. The javana power involved in may be small in one act, but it builds up over repeated killings.
This is more clear when one is killing a human, where a lot more javana power arise in citta (thoughts or sankhara) while doing the killing. One needs to be really angry to kill a human. So, even killing one human may be enough to give rise to a strong kamma beeja to get a corresponding bhava in the future.
In general, kamma beeja generated via dosa citta (angry thoughts) lead to birth in the niraya (hell), where one will be in a “very angry environment” all the time, being subjected to repeated torture and killings.
It is also easy to visualize what kind of bhava can be expected for vaci and kaya sankhara generated with greedy (lobha) mindset. Such greedy gati match preta bhava, and those who have excessive greedy state of mind (and thus think, speak, and act accordingly) are likely to be born as preta (hungry ghost).
Moha character is a bit more complex. It is manifested in subtle ways: excess worrying, tendency to cry and spend hours and hours worrying about even a simple mishap are some. These gati arise because one does not realize that such mishaps are results of past kamma (kamma vipaka), and thus have their origins in the past. Some of them can be avoided, some can be managed to lessen their impact, but some cannot be avoided.
Animal bhava is associated with combinations, possibly of all three (lobha,dosa, moha). Pali and Sinhala word for animal is tirisan (or three “san”).
Anyway, this may be good topic for a future post. Let us discuss and may be I can get some more ideas from the discussion.
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There are three suttas (all named Bija Sutta): SN 22.54, SN 49.24, and AN 10.104.
It is helpful to note that kamma bija (or beeja) are created by vinnana: “Viññāna – What It Really Means” and “Sankhāra and Kammā, Viññāna and Kamma Beeja“.
July 28, 2018: Another important sutta in this context is, Pathamabhava Sutta (AN 3.76), which says: “Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṃ khettaṃ, viññāṇaṃ bījaṃ, taṇhā sneho..”
Translated: “Ānanda, deeds (kamma) are the field, viññāṇa is the seed, and craving (taṇhā) is the moisture..” -
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There is no direct relationship between asava and kamma beeja.
Asava are more closely related to one’s gati.
Kammma beeja are more specific. Of course they arise depending on one’s gati (or asava).
One attains Nibbana by removing asava (asavakkhaya). One’s gati are also removed at the same time. One’s kamma beeja may still be there, but they cannot bring vipaka.
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Hālo,
Lal said “One’s kamma beeja may still be there, but they cannot bring vipaka.”
What post goes into the details about the vipaka not bearing fruit?
Much metta!
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Hi inflib,
You can look at the post: Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya
Hope this helps!
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Thank you, firewns.
Yes. It is discussed specifically at #2 in that post.Even if one has pending kamma vipaka, they cannot bring their fruits unless suitable conditions are present.
A special case is when one attains magga phala. Then the conditions for certain kamma vipaka to bring to fruits are removed permanently.
– For example, if one has kamma vipaka that could lead to rebirth in the apayas, they are automatically prevented from bringing vipaka when the Sotapanna stage is attained. -
Thank you firewns and Lal.
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