Anagami stage skipped

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    • #31133

      I just read Ascendance to Nibbāna via Jhāna (Dhyāna) and Pannāvimutti – Arahanthood without Jhāna

      What I understand by what #14 and #18 of the first link points, is that an Anagami as entered into an Ariya jhana. Then, I wonder:
      1. Is an Anagami always in an Ariya jhana? (has no kama raga, but rupa and arupa raga)
      2. If an Arahant has neither kama raga nor rupa raga nor arupa raga, then can he not always be in a jhanic state? (But can intentionally enter in a jhanic state)
      3. Has a Pannāvimutti Arahant “skipped” the Anagami stage? (Since he attained Arahanhood without (Ariya?) jhana, and to attain the Anagami stage it requires attain Ariya jhana).

    • #31136

      All three questions presume that jhanas are necessary to attain magga phala. That is not correct.

      1. First, jhana are two types: Ariya and anariya.

      2. One can attain magga phala (Anagami, Arahant, etc.) without attaining any type of jhana.
      – The ability to get into jhana comes with practicing to get to jhana.
      – It also depends on whether one had cultivated jhana in recent previous lives.

      Therefore, some Anagamis may never get into a jhana. Even an Anagami who has cultivated jhana, will not be in jhana all the time.
      – Losing kama raga is different from getting into a jhana.
      – An Anagami would not have kama raga whether in a jhana or not.

      All other questions need to be analyzed the same way.

      See the first few posts in:
      Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala

    • #31137

      Then the sentence in #14 saying this: “This means one is essentially an Anāgami by the time one is fully absorbed in the first Ariya jhāna”, should be read with this logical order:

      IF one is fully absorbed in first Ariya jhana THEN one is essentially an Anagami

      But that not implying the other direction:

      IF one is essentially an Anagami THEN one is fully absorbed in (first or an) Ariya jhana

      That last sentence is what I erroneously interpreted.

    • #31138

      That is right.

      The statement that you quoted, “This means one is essentially an Anāgami by the time one is fully absorbed in the first Ariya jhāna”, is correct.

      But there can be Anagamis who are not able to get into any jhana. Of course, they can spend time and cultivate jhana.

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