[sybe07]

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.53/en/sujato

Is the kind of consciousness which is refered to as not becoming establised, not coming to growth, freed…..also discontinue, existing in discrete unique moments or this consciousness stabel during the day, not in discrete moments?

If i am not wrong it refers to appattitthita vinnana

Siebe

[Lal]

I am reproducing the whole sutta translation that Siebe has referred to below. I am doing this to illustrate the fact that it does not serve any purpose to translate some deep suttas word-by-word. Can anyone understand what is meant by the following translation? Please feel free to state what you think the following translation means. I am working on the new post and may not be able to comment for a day or two.

53. Involvement

At Sāvatthī.

“Mendicants, if you’re involved, you’re not free. If you’re not involved, you’re free.

As long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with form, supported by form, founded on form. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.

Or consciousness would remain involved with feeling …

Or consciousness would remain involved with perception …

Or as long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with choices, supported by choices, grounded on choices. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.

Mendicants, suppose you say: ‘Apart from form, feeling, perception, and choices, I will describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and reappearing, its growth, increase, and maturity.’ That is not possible.

If a mendicant has given up greed for the form element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness.

If a mendicant has given up greed for the feeling element …

perception element …

choices element …

consciousness element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness. Since that consciousness does not become established and does not grow, with no power to regenerate, it is freed.

Being free, it’s stable. Being stable, it’s content. Being content, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

[sybe07]

I will try,

This consciousness that does not establish and grow, is an awarennes that only slightly contacts what is being experienced. Slightly, because it does not grow on what it experiences. It knows what arises but does not get involved in it because it does not grow on it. It is a simple and pure awareness and nothing more.

For example pain; it knows pain, pain is felt, but there is no involvement at all in the pain because it does not grow and really become established on the pain. Therefor the phyiscal pain is no burden for the mind. There is attention, there is contact, but no involvement because involvement means this vinnana must grow. That does not happen.

So i would say it is a kind of vinnana that is only aware and nothing more, pure awareness.

[Lal]

The keyword in this sutta is “upaya.” It is closely related to the word “upādāna.” As I mentioned in the new post today, “upa” means “keeping close.”
– The word upaya means “having upādāna for the worldly things.”
– See, “Tanhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paticca Samuppāda”

The first phrase itself is highly condensed. “Upayo, bhikkhave, avimutto, anupayo vimutto“.
– Therefore, it means: “Bhikkhus, one who is attached (to this world or the aggregates) is not liberated; one who is not attached (who has removed tanhā) is liberated.

Then the sutta states that separately for the four aggregates: rūpa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.

Next verse: Because one is attached to rūpa, one craves for rūpa, and one highly-values rūpa, the (kamma)viññāṇa grows and gets established.
– Then the verse is repeated for vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.

Then the next verse says: “Bhikkhus, without such attachment and craving for rūpa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra it is not possible for viññāṇa to grow, get established, and to bring rebirth.

“Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned craving for rūpa, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishment of (kamma)viññāṇa.
– Then the verse is repeated for vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.

Final verse: “When that (kamma)viññāṇa is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, one is liberated. By being liberated, his mind is steady. By being steady, he is content. By being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is rebirth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this existence.’”

[sybe07]

Thanks for the translation Lal.

This last unestablised vinnana is that also a discontinues vinnana, arising in discrete moments?

[Lal]

There are vipāka viññāna and kamma viññāna.

Vipāka viññāna are six types: They arise via our six senses: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and the mind, called cakkhu, sōta, ghāna,jivhā, kāya, and manō viññāna.
– The viññāna is discussed in the sutta is NOT those. Those six types of viññāna remained for even the Buddha. He could see, hear, etc.

What is discontinued at the Arahanthood is the kamma viññāna that arises via “sankhāra paccaya viññāna.“ Those are manō viññāna generated in a PS cycle starting with “avijjā paccayā sankhāra.”

This is why it DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE to translate different types of viññāna as just “consciousness.” It is very important to understand this point.

See, “Viññāna – What It Really Means.”

This was also pointed out in the post recent post, “Tanhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paticca Samuppāda,” even though I may not have emphasized it.

[sybe07]

What i have understood until now is that those six kinds vinnana do not arise simultaneously.
It is not one and the same vinnana that hears, sees, smells etc. Those are vipaka vinnana.

But what is the nature in this very life of this unestablised vinnana, this vinnana that does not grow on rupa, vedana etc? Is it stable? Does it also arise in discrete moments?

[Lal]

Siebe wrote: “But what is the nature in this very life of this unestablised vinnana, this vinnana that does not grow on rupa, vedana etc? Is it stable? Does it also arise in discrete moments?”

Such kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant.
– An Arahant experiences ONLY vipāka viññāna.

Please take the time and read my above comments AND the posts suggested carefully. This is not something one just reads and understands. One must take time and think.
– I know that many of you do not take the time to read the suggested posts, and just read a post and move onto something else. There is nothing I can do about that. Buddha Dhamma is deep and takes some effort to understand.

Anyone truly interested in uncovering this whole process needs to carefully go through the series of posts at: “Worldview of the Buddha.”
– It is explained systematically there. Furthermore, if one does not understand those posts, one will not be able to understand the future posts.

[Johnny_Lim]

Lal wrote: “What is discontinued at the Arahanthood is the kamma viññāna that arises via “sankhāra paccaya viññāna.“ Those are manō viññāna generated in a PS cycle starting with “avijjā paccayā sankhāra.”

So, manō viññāna is synonymous to kamma viññāna. Does it mean vipāka viññāna can never be a form of manō viññāna?

[Lal]

Johnny asked: “So, manō viññāna is synonymous to kamma viññāna. Does it mean vipāka viññāna can never be a form of manō viññāna?”

Manō viññāna can be vipaka viññāna OR kamma viññāna.

– Vipāka viññāna can be ALL SIX types: They arise via our six senses when a ārammana comes in via the six sense faculties: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and the mind, called cakkhu, sōta, ghāna,jivhā, kāya, and manō viññāna. Those six arise via “cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.” through “mananñca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ.”

– Kamma viññāna can ONLY be mano viññāna. Kamma viññāna arise via “sankhāra paccaya viññāna.“ Those are manō viññāna generated in a PS cycle starting with “avijjā paccayā sankhāra.”

See, “Viññāna – What It Really Means.”

As I said, one needs to understand the recent series of posts given in the above comment.

[sybe07]

In my own words,

When there is a certain lust for the khandha’s, there arises a lust-based vinnana called kamma vinnana via sankhara paccaya vinnana. This is always a mano-vinnana. When there is no more lust for any khandha this lust based vinnana does not arise. The kamma vinnana is a burden for the mind. An agitation. When there is no lust at all the kamma vinnana and it’s burden and agitation does not arise and one is liberated.

[y not]

I see anicca as the determining factor in all of this.

It will perhaps be helpful to see the main idea that an Arahant will therefore not attach, even less draw closer, any of the khandhas, vinnana being their summation. So “kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant”; and so we may continue..’ even via the kusala-Mula PS process’ ?

[Lal]

y not wrote: “It will perhaps be helpful to see the main idea that an Arahant will therefore not attach, even less draw closer, any of the khandhas, vinnana being their summation. So “kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant”; and so we may continue..’ even via the kusala-Mula PS process’ ?”

That is not possible to explain in a forum reply. The idea behind writing this series of posts is to explain many things including the answer to your question of: “So “kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant”

For the last time, it is explained at, “Worldview of the Buddha.”

I can answer any specific question on something that is not clear in those posts.
– If something is not clear, please quote from those posts and ask questions.

As the Buddha himself said, he could do only so much. It is up to anyone interested to spend time and learn this Dhamma, “that has never been known to the world.”

Please don’t take me wrong. I am doing my best to explain things, and I am willing to take the time to explain any statements in a post that is not clear. But what you are asking is to explain a KEY CONCLUSION that arises out of a series of posts. It has already been explained. There must be a step earlier than that you could not understand. Let us try to get to that step.

[y not]

“….a KEY CONCLUSION that arises out of a series of posts.” Presicely, Lal. That it what I tried to do. But instead of simplify, I perhaps over-simplified. The idea was to make of this maze of terms a clear idea of what in effect makes for an Arahant.

Please clarify what you mean by “There must be a step earlier than that you could not understand”. I have no idea what that step might be. Not that I claim to have understood ALL steps everywhere, in every post; in this connection, I mean, what might be the step I have not understood?

“kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant.” was not a question I asked. It was a statement of yours, Lal. I only saw from it that they (kamma vinnana) arise neither from the kusala-Mula PS process, taken as equivalent to (the perception of) nicca. So therefore the conclusion I came to was that an Arahant has seen anicca perfectly.

[Lal]

y not: Do you have a question or you are just making a statement? I thought you asked a question in your first post.
If there is a question, what is the question?
If you don’t have a question, you don’t need to respond to this comment by me.

[y not]

Of course I have a question. Is it not evident? My conclusion, the connection to anicca, that conclusion, is it the correct one? Or… the PS process, whether Akusala- or kusala- Mula, does not apply to an Arahant because he has seen the anicca nature perfectly. That was my conclusion. Can it be stated thus?

Thank you

[Lal]

y not: “the PS process, whether Akusala- or kusala- Mula, does not apply to an Arahant because he has seen the anicca nature perfectly.”

Yes. That is correct.

[Author]

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