[Saurabh@2110]

Hello sir lal and other respected members.
I have seen one earlier post regarding this topic but I didn’t find answer to my query there. So I am here to ask.

I have attended two “10 days Vipassana courses”. What I understood is that, after practicing normal breathing-meditation for 3 days (which does not lead to removal of 3 poisons from the mind and it just merely suppresses them possibly leading to anariya jhana), after that they teach Vipassana-insight technique.

In that technique, one has to observe/know sensations over our entire body with (as much as possible) equanimity by roaming our attention over all the parts of our body in any sequence but without missing any part. Sometimes we feel sensations on some parts and there is no sensation on other parts regardless of that our job is just to know/observe the sensations by moving mind all over the body stopping at each part for about a minute. He says there are 3 types of sensations, pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. Our job is this – to not cling to pleasant sensations and just observe and know them with equanimity(that they are impermanent and aniccha) and then move on to another body part, to not despise/dislike/hate the unpleasant sensations and just observe and know them again with equanimity and then move on to another body part, same goes for neutral sensations. This way when we observe/know unpleasant sensation with equanimity, it will carry out itself and get dissipated because we refused to react with craving or ill will towards that sensation/sankhara. Same goes for pleasant and neutral sensations, which strengthens the understanding of ‘aniccha'(nothing can be maintained as per will) as well as ‘anitya'(impermanence). The measure of progress is level of equanimity and not the intensity of sensations.

The goal is to increase our equanimity and make our mind as subtle as possible to know all the subtlest of sensations of/in this body and seeing/knowing aniccha directly in our body (seeing everything as it is).
As we practice more and more and become more and more equanimous towards pleasant, unpleasant and neutral sensations they will get dissipated and then further deeper/subtler sankharas (as sensations) will come/arise on the surface of body… They can come/arise in any form even in the form of any disease or disorder or even in the form of any unpleasant situation in daily life as our equanimity towards them is increasing. He calls this a big operation of mind.

Now, he said after progressing like this continuously for a certain amount of time, a stage will come for the practitioner where his mind will become so subtle that he will know most subtlest sensations in his body in the form of rapid formation and immediate dissolution of every sensation/particle belonging to our body, which he called ‘bhanga-nana’ (I think this is given in vishuddhimagga). And like this, after knowing/experiencing the rapid formation and dissolution of smallest particles in our body directly, one realizes the impermanent and aniccha nature directly and then one at that stage drops attachment to this one’s body and mind and then looks for that what is beyond this aniccha and suffering. S.N. Goenka directly says that by progressing like this, one can and will reach the ‘stream of nibbana,’ thereby becoming a stream-enterer.

So respected sir lal, what do you think considering the procedure of this technique which goenka teacher says scientific, can be the way of realising the tilakkhanas and attaining stream-entry? What do you think sir? Plz share your understanding regarding above technique. Thank you sir.

[Lal]

Thank you for describing the “Vipassana-insight technique” that you learned from the Goenka vipassana courses. You described the “vipassana aspect” as follows:

“In that technique, one has to observe/know sensations over our entire body with (as much as possible) equanimity by roaming our attention over all the parts of our body in any sequence but without missing any part. Sometimes we feel sensations on some parts and there is no sensation on other parts regardless of that our job is just to know/observe the sensations by moving mind all over the body stopping at each part for about a minute. He says there are 3 types of sensations, pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. Our job is this – to not cling to pleasant sensations and just observe and know them with equanimity(that they are impermanent and aniccha) and then move on to another body part, to not despise/dislike/hate the unpleasant sensations and just observe and know them again with equanimity and then move on to another body part, same goes for neutral sensations. This way when we observe/know unpleasant sensation with equanimity, it will carry out itself and get dissipated because we refused to react with craving or ill will towards that sensation/sankhara. Same goes for pleasant and neutral sensations, which strengthens the understanding of ‘aniccha'(nothing can be maintained as per will) as well as ‘anitya'(impermanence).”

Let me ask you the following questions:

1. Why is it called “insight meditation”? What insights does it provide? Getting an insight means understanding previously unknown aspects.

2. is it possible to experience truly “pleasant/joyful” or “unpleasant/stressful” sensations in a group session like that? 

• I would think that you mostly experience a neutral state of mind, especially after starting the session with “breath meditation.” 
• Some people may experience unpleasant vedana due to cramps by sitting in the same place for a long time.
• In those cases, what type of “insights” can you get?

[Yash RS]

I have also practiced Goenka’s Vipassana and to be honest it was a torture to the mind.

Even if you feel a strong itch or muscle cramp, they advise you to stay in that position as these sensations or pains are “mental defilements that are being released through the body”! 

I never used to really”enjoy” that meditation, as it was both physically and mentally fatiguing. I don’t know how can one see the equanimity of everything without understanding the Buddha Dhamma first.

I never experienced any progress in terms of mental defilements, but more irritation in the mind because of the above mentioned things. That was in 2013, then after 9 years I came across the true dhamma.

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

Thank you for describing the “Vipassana-insight technique” that you learned from the Goenka vipassana courses. You described the “vipassana aspect” as follows:

“In that technique, one has to observe/know sensations over our entire body with (as much as possible) equanimity by roaming our attention over all the parts of our body in any sequence but without missing any part. Sometimes we feel sensations on some parts and there is no sensation on other parts regardless of that our job is just to know/observe the sensations by moving mind all over the body stopping at each part for about a minute. He says there are 3 types of sensations, pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. Our job is this – to not cling to pleasant sensations and just observe and know them with equanimity(that they are impermanent and aniccha) and then move on to another body part, to not despise/dislike/hate the unpleasant sensations and just observe and know them again with equanimity and then move on to another body part, same goes for neutral sensations. This way when we observe/know unpleasant sensation with equanimity, it will carry out itself and get dissipated because we refused to react with craving or ill will towards that sensation/sankhara. Same goes for pleasant and neutral sensations, which strengthens the understanding of ‘aniccha'(nothing can be maintained as per will) as well as ‘anitya'(impermanence).”

Let me ask you the following questions:

1. Why is it called “insight meditation”? What insights does it provide? Getting an insight means understanding previously unknown aspects.

2. is it possible to experience truly “pleasant/joyful” or “unpleasant/stressful” sensations in a group session like that? 

• I would think that you mostly experience a neutral state of mind, especially after starting the session with “breath meditation.” 
• Some people may experience unpleasant vedana due to cramps by sitting in the same place for a long time.
• In those cases, what type of “insights” can you get?

Thank you for your response sir. Please forgive me and correct me if I interpreted dhamma incorrectly anywhere.

Your Q was…
1. Why is it called “insight meditation”? What insights does it provide? Getting an insight means understanding previously unknown aspects.
– sir, my answer based on what I learned there in that course would be…insight into the true nature. Goenka always talked everything about this technique relative to this body only. Seeing everything as it is. He says it’s our reaction of mind which causes sankharas to continue in cycle because naturally all the sankharas are impermanent and subject to pass away but it’s our mind which is filled with kleshas(defilements) whose reaction to them causes this cycle to continue(cycle of suffering due to that particular sankhara) For example… If somebody yelled at us angryly then it’s like unpleasant sankhara arising on our body because of our interpretation of that yelling of another person to us, and then our defiled mind reacts towards it with hatred, resulting in us yelling back towards that person or something like that thereby multiplying it and continuing the cycle of that sankhara and not letting it dissolve by itself by the law of impermanence(instead holding onto it and multiplying it), as a resultant creating another sankhara of hatred. But if one is Vipassana practitioner he will see other person’s yelling towards oneself as one’s own sankhara taking surface and he will not react with ‘dvesha'(ill will/hatred) towards it and instead he will be equanimous in that situation, thereby breaking the cycle of multiplication of that particular sankhara and resultant suffering. Same goes for pleasant situations, engaging in pleasant activity causes one’s roots of clinging/dependency to for example sensual pleasures to increase causing one to suffer once that sensation of pleasantness fades away. In this case also Vipassana practitioner will tend to be equanimous so that his roots of desire poison will not increase and instead will diminish as he will have equanimity upto certain extent which is not seen in defiled mind of puthujana who sees pleasant sensations as happiness and clings to it.

Insight into true nature(of impermanence)of our body using our mind as a tool to experience/understand the truth of ‘impermanence’/’uday-byay'(formation-dissolution) of our body on subtlest level. “IT TEACHES PERSON TO LIVE EQUANIMOUSLY IN EVERY KIND OF SITUATION WHETHER IT IS PLEASANT SITUATION OR UNPLEASANT IR NEUTRAL”. When one(Vipassana practitioner) understands/experiences impermanence directly in his own body with his own mind then one will naturally drop attachment to this body as he will now see his own body as not worthy of saying mine…as it changes constantly billions of time in a fraction of seconds…so aniccha + dukkha nature of this body is also directly known as this practice progresses further and after dropping the attachment to this body because of knowing it’s true nature of aniccha and dukkha only then one’s mind detaches itself from body and looks for ‘that’ reailty which is not this(what is observed) which is beyond this aniccha and suffering or devoid of this(it’s hard for me to put in words sorry for that) and as a result realising also ‘anatta'(no self found anywhere) and glimpsing into nibbana becoming stream-enterer.

Dukkha nature is seen as unpleasant sankharas usually manifest on the surface in the form of for example ..pain due to any disease, pain due to sitting continuously and pleasant sensations fading away/ending away.

S. N. Goenka says through this Vipassana technique one can remove poisons of greed, hatred and delusion from there root. He says jhanas are not necessary to practice Vipassana as they just supress the defilements temporarily rather than uprooting them/destroying their roots directly. Whereas Vipassana is way to uproot the defilements from their source itself. He says vipassana is the art of living life and not escaping life.

Sir then your 2nd Q was …

2. is it possible to experience truly “pleasant/joyful” or “unpleasant/stressful” sensations in a group session like that?
– sir, Goenka says that it takes time based on one’s level of development of mind and level of paramis from past many lives to progress faster and he advises to practice this Vipassana technique for one hour daily after the completion of his course for atleast 1 year, only then one will get the proper grip on this technique of Vipassana. This 10 or 20 or whatever days course is just small step in a long journey of freeing oneself from suffering. (These are S.N. Goenka’s words)

I will talk about my own experience. It depends on one’s ‘ekaggata'(focus of mind with level of equanimity) to experience such sensations. I don’t have experience of pleasant sensations but I do remember experiencing one painful sensation during my one session, it was on my cheek beside nose and it felt as if there was an itch/ulcer was forming then and there at that time and I immediately checked with my hands(we are not supposed to react like this as much as possible and supposed to just observe with equanimity with moving as much less as possible) but there was no ulcer/sore area there, it was just sensation surfaced.

Sir I have attended some one-day courses as well and I have observed that, after completing course, I have faced slightly more ammount of intense situations where I would be forced to get angry on my mom/dad/family members/friends during daily activities. I don’t know why but it seems as if not reacting angrily causes more sankharas to surface over our body and ones resilience increases although by slight ammount but it happens..as far as my experience goes. So my understanding is that as one practices this Vipassana technique regularly, one reacts less with poison of greed and hatred and more with equanimity as a result deeper sankharas are forced to arise on surface causing us to experience then here and now. The sankhara which otherwise was gonna come to surface only when it’s related causes and conditions will arise, is forced to come on the surface here and now..

Also the sensation of pain in legs or back due to sitting for long duration like that during Vipassana practice sessions, is also a type of unpleasant sensation and should also be looked with equanimity thereby increasing the parami of determination (S.N. Goenka says by attending this Vipassana retreat one also fulfills the pots of ten paramis even if it’s just a drop)(for example course is free and our eating, staying and all the livelihood for 10 days is taken care by the money donated by previous course attendees so we are advised to donate for the sake of those who are gonna attend that course in future if we feel that it was of any benefit to us. Donating is by choice and not compulsory, thereby helping fulfill Dana parami also)(this is also words of Goenka)(like this he explains how all of the ten paramis large pots are filled by tiny drops by attending this course)(this explanation I can give if required but it will be lengthy post)

I have not experienced any pleasant sensation till now though. But teacher S.N. Goenka talks about one pleasant type of sensation which most of practitioners will experience as they further progress and it is the sensation he calls ‘dhara-pravah’ from head to toe (literal translation of that word in english being ‘flowing of stream’ from top of our head towards bottom of our whole body). Even if one’s mind becomes much subtle to experience this pleasant sensation of ‘dhara-pravah’, one should not be happy about it, because even this sensation like all sensations is impermanent and aniccha(subject to change), instead one should know it with equanimity and one should strengthen the understanding of ‘aniccha’ nature of these sensations be it pleasant or unpleasant.

Sir I would like to tell you last thing about this. Before starting the course he recites and asks attendees to recite three refugees of buddha dhamma and Sangha and taking upon the 5 precepts and keeping them for the duration of complete course. He says this technique was lost and discovered by Gautama the buddha. He says one will naturally feel gratitude towards this person called Gautama the buddha as one progresses further in practice because it’s beneficial results will be surely experienced by one who is practicing it regularly.

I tried to explain Vipassana sir and tried to answer your questions as best as possible. Can you tell me what do you think about this? According to pure teachings of dhamma? Sorry if I sounded rude anywhere and for my bad English sir. Thank you.

[Lal]

What do you (or Mr. Goenka) mean by “sankharas”? 

• I think we can discuss things better once I understand what you all mean by “sanskaras.”

[Saurabh@2110]

Sir one thing I forgot to mention. S.N. Goenka says, as a result of practicing Vipassana, the part of mind which reacts to all the sensations and situations(by increasing craving for pleasant sensations & situations and despising/hating/disliking unpleasant sensations and situations) grows weaker and the part of mind which just witnesses situations and sensations without reacting grows stronger. It’s like our reaction to situations and sensations become less and less based on greed and ill will and ignorance thereby becoming more and more free from them.
So this I forgot to mention in earlier post sorry sir.

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

What do you (or Mr. Goenka) mean by “sankharas”? 

• I think we can discuss things better once I understand what you all mean by “sanskaras.”

Sorry sir for not being enough clear.
As far as I understood Goenka’s course, sankhara means deeper remaining seeds of greed and ill will. And what we observe usually is not all of them but many many of them are present deeper in our subconscious yet to surface(come in our experience) because of lack of causes and conditions for them to arise. But eventually they all will arise on surface and if our mind stays defiled then we will multiply then without letting them get dissipated by themselves by their very nature of impermanence.
This is how I understand it. please correct me if I am wrong anywhere sir..

[Lal]

“As far as I understood Goenka’s course, sankhara means deeper remaining seeds of greed and ill will.”

• That is blatantly wrong, according to the Tipitaka!

Please read the section “What Are Saṅkhāra (Mental Formations)?” in “Mental Aggregates.”

• This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Lal.

[Saurabh@2110]

Yes sir I read the introduction part of sankhara from the link you provided above. Thank you for correction.

Sir, I think what goenka referred to as ‘sankhara’, it was, as I read on the link you provided , anusayas(the latent tendencies) actually. Translation in another language is surely tough and error causing task. I remember hearing latent tendencies in subconscious mind during course in English and hearing ‘sanskaras of raga, dvesha and moha’ in our native language. Anyways there is possibility that either this is problem due to language or maybe he is wrong here.

Sir regardless of that, what do you think about the technique of Vipassana as I (tried to) explain above. Is it possible to reach stream-entry with this practice? Or What do you think sir? Is there any possibility of that?

[Lal]

“Anyways there is possibility that either this is problem due to language or maybe he is wrong here..”

• I do not think it is a wrong translation. Other people have told me the same. If someone has evidence to the contrary, please post a comment because this is critically important. 
• Mr. Goenka had no idea about the true meaning of sankhara.
• The “technique” depends on a wrong concept! You should be able to figure out the rest.

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Saurabh@2110

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

“Anyways there is possibility that either this is problem due to language or maybe he is wrong here..”

• I do not think it is a wrong translation. Other people have told me the same. If someone has evidence to the contrary, please post a comment because this is critically important. 
• Mr. Goenka had no idea about the true meaning of sankhara.
• The “technique” depends on a wrong concept! You should be able to figure out the rest.

Okay sir! I got my answer now.
Thank you very much for your clarification and correction regarding the topic! Yes I’ll try to figure out the rest!

[Author]

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