Reply To: Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda

#45631
Tobi
Participant

Hello Lal, 
this post was written because I wanted to know what jhanic sukha means. I was not familiar with the term until then. 
#45478 
“P.S. “Rupa raga” includes, but is not limited to, jhanic sukha; ” Adherence to the Dhamma” is also contained in the Rupa Raga” 
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To analyze Ruparaga and Kārmaguna, I will use the approach via the Jhānas. 
Even at the time of the Buddha, other ascetic traditions considered any kind of pleasure as something to be avoided, but after performing painful asceticism, such as that performed by the 5 ascetics before the Buddha’s awakening, the Bodhisattva discovered pleasure, even a certain type of pleasure, which is an important mental and physical factor in purifying and freeing the mind from attachment. 

It was at this time that the Bodhisatta became aware. That the end of the spiritual path is achieved through pleasure and not pain, which involves a certain type of physical pleasure and spiritual joy.

However, everyone agreed that sensual pleasures must be abandoned. To get to liberation. 
Meditative jhānic states with breathing meditation only to suppress sensory perception should be avoided. Since they are temporary. 
Jhānic states should be achieved through knowledge, wisdom (pañña).  
Whether with breathing meditation or wisdom, the misunderstanding that is not present in the experience of the Jhānas is the movement of desire, the very inner movement in which sensory objects grasp and captivate the mind. 

Both terms Bhavana and Jhāna mean meditation, in the deeper sense Bhavana means cultivation and Jhāna means immersion that is produced by strong concentration/samadhi. 
Kāma and Kāmaguna as well as Rupa Raga are related and are always related to the Rupa and Kāma Loka. Kāmaguna is always dependent on the Kāmi stage of rebirth and also anusaya, which makes Kāmaguna seem subjective. 
In order to enter the first Jhāna, one must clearly recognize the danger in Kāma. The practitioner, when he enters the first Jhāna and dwells in it, is indeed separated from the attachment and desire for sensual pleasures, that is, the basic tendency of ordinary perception (M I 504), and not from sensory experience. The separation from desire and attachment to sensual pleasures and other unwholesome states of mind must result from insight into the nature of Tilakkhana, i.e. anicca, dukkha, anatta, and understanding of the four noble truths. The desire for sensual pleasures is a basic tendency of an un-liberated mind that sees sensual pleasures as satisfying and desirable. 
I have not been able to find anything in any description of the first Jhāna that mentions that one is separated from the Indriyas, the āyatanas associated with the five senses, or from the Kāma-Guṇas, so it is safe to say that one assumes that one is cut off from the sensory experience during this period by a deepening of the mind (samadhi). Kāmaguna are the five objects of the senses, they are the cause of the emergence of desire, hatred and delusion. Kāmaguna are the qualities of sensual pleasure, they exist with strong and weak qualities that can lead to attachment, a kind of natural subjective bondage and influence on sensory experiences from Mara’s world.
 
Chat GPT:(M I 504
The sutta you are looking for is the Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta (The Great Discourse on the Basics of Mindfulness), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Speeches). It is the 10th speech in this collection and begins on page 504 of the Pali Text Society’s Volume I12. 
In this sutta, the Buddha teaches the four basics of mindfulness: the body, the feelings, the mind, and the spiritual objects. He explains how to observe them in meditation and how they lead to the realization of the four noble truths12. 
END ChatGPT 

Binoculars Analogy: Meditation is like using binoculars. The binoculars are the mind and the object in our case is a “bhikkhu explaining a Dhamma concept”. Listening carefully to the bhikkhu is like pointing binoculars (mind) at an object, the more attentive we are, the sharper the image in binoculars becomes. We focus with the adjusting wheel on the binoculars, up to the point where the image is totally sharp, that is Samadhi. The eight magnification levels that binoculars possess are the Jhāna steps. Each level also has a better movement stabilizer, which is shown by calming the mind the higher one is on the Jhāna level. 
We only need the first 4 stages for a Dhamma concept. By zooming in on the object, we let the mind in this case cling to the Dhamma concept. Which causes the bad Ditthis to dissolve and we understand the concept clearly. Unpacking the binoculars and removing the protective caps is equivalent to removing the obstacles (nīvaraṇas). 
To reach the first jhanas. The mind must also be cleansed of the obstacles (Nīvaraṇas). Jhānic sukha has an important role on the path to liberation and it also helps to overcome the craving for sensual pleasures (kāma raga), which is one of the ten fetters (samyojana). It prepares the mind for the development of wisdom (pañña), which arises from insight into the three characteristics of all phenomena (anicca, dukkha, anatta).

cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe (Lal, how would you translate this phrase that occurs in many suttas in connection with meditation/mindfulness?) 
Suttas:  The Sampasādanīyasutta (DN 28) / Devadahasutta (MN101)   and many more. 
The five “nīvaraṇas” hinder the clear recognition of the nature of experience, which hinder the acquisition of knowledge and insight. There are five: (i) sensual desire (kāmacchanda), (ii) hatred (vyāpāda), (iii) sluggishness and drowsiness (thīna-middha), (iv) excitability and fear (uddhaccakukkucca), and (v) doubt (vicikicchā). It is impossible to enter the trance states or attain liberation if these obstacles are not overcome. A mind that is not cleansed of these obstacles cannot see clearly. 
Jhānic sukha is a term that refers to the happiness or joy experienced in the states of deepening (jhāna). Jhāna are meditative states in which the mind becomes calm, focused, and clear. There are four subtle jhānas (rupa jhāna) and four formless jhānas (arupa jhāna), which differ in their factors and objects. 
Jhānic sukha is one of the factors of the first jhānas, along with initial and sustained thinking (vitakka and vicara), joy (piti) and one-pointedness or concentration (ekaggata). Sukha is the psychological counterpart of piti, the physical feeling of bliss or intoxication. Sukha is a feeling of contentment, well-being and gratitude. You don’t need anything more than what prevails in the present moment. One is free from physical or mental pain (dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ) or pleasure (sukhaṃ somanassaṃ) associated with the desire for sensual pleasures (kāmūpasaṃhitaṃ) 
Jhānic sukha disappears in the second jhāna, where only piti and ekaggata remain. 
In the third jhāna, piti also disappears, leaving only ekaggata and a feeling of equanimity (upekkha). 
 
In the fourth jhāna, upekkha also disappears, and only ekaggata remains. 

The formless jhānas no longer have any factors, but only different objects: infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness and neither perception nor non-perception.

Jhānicpīti (spiritual joy) and Sukha (physical pleasures) are the key elements for deciphering in order to understand the path to liberation. These two factors (nīrāmisa pīti and nīrāmisa sukha) that characterize the first and second jhāna (pīti is also one of the initial factors of the third jhāna), pleasure and joy are thus the factors that involve neither desire nor attachment. On the contrary, they can only arise by encountering the world of phenomena without attachment. When one recognizes the true nature of Tilakkhana of phenomena, that is, the unreliability, fruitlessness and lack of substantiality of all phenomena, Jhānicpīti and Sukha are born. 

In addition, it is the attainment of jhānicpīti and sukha that allows the mind to completely abandon the desire for sensual pleasures (kāmacchanda) and the latent tendency (anusaya) to seek this kind of pleasure. 
Thus, the teachings of the Buddha Gotama were a rejection of asceticism and also of other ideas and practices, such as those taught by Āḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka Rāmaputta. 
However, Jhānic pīti (and sukha) are not cut off from sensory experience independently of the five sensory fields of sensual pleasure, since they arise from the clear recognition of the danger of sensory satisfaction. When one recognizes the danger and true nature of sensual pleasures, one can enjoy experiences without unwholesome states of mind such as clinging, aversion, etc. From this it can be deduced that sensory contact can take place without desire, pleasure and aversion, even before reaching awakening and over a longer period of time and not just as a momentary experience.   
I would argue that this happens during the experience of the Jhānic states. The experience of phenomena without these falsifications of the mind enables the mind to find pleasure, not in sensual pleasures, but by recognizing the true nature of the phenomena of this world with its 31 realms. 
Samphassa-jā-vēdanā are spirit-made feelings that result from attachment to or aversion to a sensory object. They are not the result of kamma vipāka, but of taṇhā (thirst) and upādāna (clinging). 
For example, when one sees a friend, one may have a feeling of joy, which is a samphassa-jā-vēdanā. When one sees an enemy, one can have a feeling of hatred, which is also a samphassa-jā-vēdanā. When you see someone you don’t know, you can have a neutral feeling, which is also a samphassa-jā-vēdanā. 
Samphassa-jā-vēdanā are mind-made feelings that are produced with the five aggregates “rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra and viññāṇa” with PS. We do not cling to “physical objects”, but to our “spiritual impressions” or “rūpakkhandha”, which are stored as pañcakkhandha in the Namagotta.

Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā” are only part of the more general statement “saḷāyatana paccayā phasso; phassapaccayā vedanā what Samphassa-jā-vēdanā is… 

In my opinion, the first four Jhānas are capable of “Samphassa-jā-vēdanā” to delete/overwrite these storages, which are based on the three types of vedanā and are stored in the pañcakkhandha in the Namagotta. 
Thus, the first Jhāna points the way to awakening/ahrant-hood and awakening is the elimination of Gati, Anusaya, asava, Tanha….which includes Samphassa-jā-vēdanā. So Jhānas are used to remove impurities and are related to Ja-vedanā. 
 
Bing(ChatGPT);” 
• The sutta you are looking for is the Mahāsaccakasutta (The Greater Discourse to Saccaka), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Discourses). It is the 36th speech in this collection and begins on page 246 of the Pali Text Society’s Volume I12. 
• In this sutta, the Buddha tells of his quest for enlightenment, his struggles with the five obstacles and the five aggregates, his attainment of the four jhānas and the four noble truths, and his challenge to Saccaka, the son of a nigaṇṭha (Jaina), who tries to refute him12. 
End ChatGPT” 
 
According to the Jain ascetics; 
Pleasure cannot be gained by pleasure; Joy can be gained through pain (sukhena sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ, dukkhena kho sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ). For if joy could be obtained through pleasure, then King Seniya Bimbisāra of Magadha would attain joy, as he dwells in greater joy than Venerable Gotama.

The Sutta Cūḷadukkhakkhandhasutta (The Shorter Discourse on the Mass of Suffering), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Speeches). It is the 14th speech in this collection  
But the Buddha told Klar that he remains in bliss longer and is therefore more fortunate than the Jain ascetics. So it is up to Jhānicpīti and sukha, which goes hand in hand with the calmness of the mind. But this only applies in the Kama and Rupa areas, where the beings have sensory pleasure. 
However, jhānicpīti (and sukha) are independent of the five strands of sensory pleasure (but not cut off from sensory experience), since it arises from the clear recognition of the danger of sensory satisfaction. Jhāna are like tools, used incorrectly they do more harm than good. 
 
Jhānas 5 to 8 are certainly to be used for the removal of the “attachment to the formlessness Arupa Loka”. 
 
There is no need to be afraid if one has cultivated Anariya Jhānas. Since, in my opinion, Jhāna is not cultivated, but used to cultivate certain Citta, Cetasika and pañcakkhandha, which only becomes noticeable in the Pathisandhi moment. Cultivation without proper purification and understanding of Dhamma is therefore the use of Anariya Jhāna <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
So, with the right understanding of Pure Dhamma, we can free ourselves from these attachments and states of mind. In which, with the help of the Jhānas, we cultivate the right Dhamma/Dhammā, which reduces the attachment to this world with its 31 realms, which even leads to the detachment of the Buddhadhamma when attaining Ahranthood.

Not quite. 
The Buddha surprisingly said; “Even if a noble disciple has insight into the true nature of sensual pleasures, this insight is not sufficient to make the mind feel disillusioned and disenchanted by sensory satisfaction and to abandon aversion to its transgression or abandonment. It is not enough to know how things really are in order to achieve liberation.

(SN 35.28

That is, “wisdom” (paññā) and “clear vision” (sudiṭṭhaṃ) of (experience) “as it is” (yathābhūtaṃ) cannot completely transform the mind. 
According to this Sutta, the cognitive ability is not sufficient to eradicate the tendencies of desire. We need the arūpa samāpatti, those who are considered to be the four recesses of the Incorporeal Sphere. They are an extension of the four depressions of the Fine Body Sphere (rūpa-jjhāna) and are sometimes referred to as the fifth to eighth depressions. The arūpa samāpatti are achieved through meditation on the absence of physicality and form, leading to a state of complete calm and stillness. They dissolve the “I” illusion and are seen as a means of overcoming suffering and achieving Nibbāna.

Could you say that Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?

Could it be that with Jhana Bhavana, we are trying to emit/produce a “pabhassara citta”?

I hope I’m not so far off the mark and “I’ve hit the nail on the head” as we say. In any case, I hope for a lot of comments whether negative or positive, but even the negative ones will have a positive effect. To get more insight into the Dhamma that has not been heard in this world before.