Reply To: arupa loka


1. Tobi’s question: Città cannot be created without Rupa.”  

  • I gave the references:  “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53)” and the subsequent few suttas n that series.
  • As for “An Arupi Brahma has the smallest rupa, hadaya vatthu,” citta cannot arise without a hadaya vatthu! No reference is needed. Furthermore, as explained in the “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53),” citta cannot arise without a rupa.

2. Tobi’s question: “Uppapatibhavana is a Pali term that means “rebirth” or “reappearance.”

  • There is no term “Uppapatibhavana.” 
  • There are “kamma bhava” and “uppatti bhava” which are related. All kammic energies are in the”kamma bhava,” and some of them become “uppatti bhava” when rebirths (uppatti) occur.
  • See “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein.”

3. Tobi’s question/comment: 

It is the before … the kamma that occurs in the patisandhi moment and is connected with bhavatanha, leads to the citta resting in the asannasatta. Vinnana is present. But it does not need rupa to be localized because there is not even a space element there. The localization of vinnana/citta in the kamaloka is done by kama-generated rupa. It is placed in the gandhabba by the arrangement of the rupas.

For example, cakkhu-viññana has Pasada Rupa as its basis and can therefore be localized in the region of our eye.

Lal said: That quoted verse can be improved as “Without accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra, the establishment, growth, or the movement of viññāṇa is not possible.

Who says that rupa is needed in the arupa loka, where there is no rupa, one does not need sanna, vedana and sankahra. Sankahra one does to counteract abhisankahra and to reach the arupa realms or at least not to form new kamma for it. It does not go higher, these are already the highest realms. This is the absolute bliss, these are the highest jhanic states. There vinnana/citta is not locally bound. There nama is so strong that it can generate rupa in large quantities. It is more like a bhavanga state.”

My response: I don’t know what to say about the above. You need to read more posts and understand the basics. Note that the term ” arupa loka” was there before Buddha Gotama. It DOES NOT mean there are no rupa there. There were ancient yogis who were able to see many of the realms in rupa loka. Births in the rupa loka are attained by cultivating the four jhanas. When one cultivates higher samapatti (which are called fifth through eighth jhanas these days), one gets rebirths in arupa loka. Even though those yogis could “see” beings in the rupa loka, they could not see the beings with just the hadaya vatthu in arupa realms. Only a Buddha can see a hadaya vatthu (a single suddhatthaka.) 

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