Reply To: arupa loka

#44565
Tobi
Participant

Hello Lal I have more questions too #44559

 

Please can you give me the reference for my studies for the statement.:” Città cannot be created without Rupa. An Arupi Brahma has the smallest rupa, hadaya vatthu.” To give?

Uppapatibhavana is a Pali term that means “rebirth” or “reappearance”. It is one of the two kinds of bhava (existence or becoming) that condition the cycle of birth and death (samsara). The other kind is kammabhava (action or volition) . Uppapatibhavana refers to the actual arising of a being in a particular realm of existence according to its kamma. There are thirty-one realms of existence in Buddhist cosmology, divided into three main categories: the sense realm (kamaloka), the form realm (rupaloka) and the formless realm (arupaloka). Uppapatibhavana is also used as a synonym for jati (birth), which is one of the twelve links of dependent origination (paticcasamuppada)

I see it this way, that in the Upayasutta SN 22.53 the departure from the Kamaloka is described and not a Brahma realm (Arupa Loka). That is why the Buddha also left us a gap in the Upaya Sutta. The one I see there, is: (1.6)

SN 22.53 / 1.6 
Or as long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with choices, supported by choices, grounded on choices. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.

saṅkhārupayaṁ vā, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṁ tiṭṭhamānaṁ tiṭṭheyya, saṅkhārārammaṇaṁ saṅkhārappatiṭṭhaṁ nandūpasecanaṁ vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjeyya.

It is the before … the kamma that occurs in the patisandhi moment and is connected with bhavatanha, leads to the citta resting in the asannasatta. Vinnana is present. But it does not need rupa to be localized because there is not even a Space Element there. The localization of vinnana/citta in the kamaloka is done by kama-generated rupa. It is placed in the gandhabba by the arrangement of the rupas.

For example, cakkhu-viññana has Pasada Rupa as its basis and can therefore be localized in the region of our eye.

Lal said: That quoted verse can be improved as “Without accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra, the establishment, growth, or the movement of viññāṇa is not possible.

Who says that rupa is needed in the arupa loka, where there is no rupa, one does not need sanna, vedana and sankahra. Sankahra one does to counteract abhisankahra and to reach the arupa realms or at least not to form new kamma for it. It does not go higher, these are already the highest realms. This is the absolute bliss, these are the highest jhanic states. There vinnana/citta is not locally bound. There nama is so strong that it can generate rupa in large quantities. It is more like a bhavanga state.

 

Sorry… but your explanations do not convince me yet. Please more_/|\_/|\_/|\_