Reply To: Difference between "Arahant phala samapatti" and "Nirodha samapatti" ?


The following post is from cubiboi (Lang):


I have some follow-up questions/thoughts from the thread in

Post on “Memory Records-critical part of five aggregates”

… but I thought it would be more relevant here.

In the other thread, the words asankata dhātu caught my attention since they made nibbana a little more “concrete”. I went back to this thread to review, and I also reread this post:

Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti

I then couldn’t resist churning those abstract concepts in my mind and wished to have them clarified.

Under #16 in Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti

… we have:

“Arahant phala samāpatti is where an Arahant experiences the pabhassara citta, a pure citta with just the universal cētasika, where the saññā cētasika is not contaminated. Nibbānā is the thought object made contact with phassa cētasika and vēdana and saññā are based on that (we have no idea about that).”

So the asankata dhātu makes contact with the phassa cētasika in the pabhassara citta, and thus here is the “interface” between “this world” and Nibbānā.

Can we also say that the asankata dhātu is “everywhere”, and when the citta is purified to the pabhassara stage then it is “seen”?

Proceeding to nirōdha samāpatti, even the phassa cētasika (plus the other 6 universals) also drop, and it’s almost “all” asankata dhātu (plus the jivitindriya rūpa). Then at parinibbana, it’s “total” asankata dhātu. The path to parinibbāna is one of dropping cētasikā (from asobhana to sobhana to the universals) and all rūpa. Looked at in this way, the asankata dhātu is then the only “real thing” (the only thing “left standing”) at the end of it all.

Also under #16:
“When an Arahant is not in nirōdha samāpatti or Arahant phala samāpatti, his/her citta get only to the “manō” state, in the sequence that normally ends up in the viññānkkhandha state for a normal human”

This means that the ordinary experience of an arahant is NOT viññānkkhandha like the rest of us, since viññānkkhandha is already defiled. If we were to make up a word to describe an arahant’s daily experience, perhaps it could be “manōcittākkhanda”?

Going “down” to the other magga phala stages. I often hear descriptions such as “One becomes a Sōtapanna at the first glimpse/taste/realization of Nibbāna. And the experience of Nibbāna gets “deeper” at subsequent stages.”

Here, the “experience of Nibbāna” has to be the cooling down (“niveema”) that Lal told us numerous times. It can’t be the contact with the asankata dhātu since the citta of a Sōtapanna, Sakadagami, and Anāgami is not the pabhassara citta.

Again, just some thoughts I couldn’t help after seeing the words asankata dhātu. I appreciate any clarification or feedback of anything erroneous.


P.S. Finally, I now realize that all description of Nibbāna I read elsewhere has been nirōdha samāpatti (without the author using these words). Nibbāna was an either/or thing, and it sounded so “unattainable”. Here, learning about the different levels of “cooling down” gives one more hope that the Sōtapanna stage is attainable.