May 15, 2020 at 8:50 am #29607y notParticipant
So an Arahant will create neither a set of pasada rupa (and therefore no pancakkhandha) nor a hadaya vatthu.
So what is it that an Arahant is made of? It is said that Arahanthood is the purification of the mind, now totally rid of raga, dosa and moha. So what constitutes that mind, now rid of all contaminants and all created (conditioned) things? This is the question, in case you are not sure later what my question was. In parrticular AFTER Parinibbana ?
Does this mean that Arahants (and the infinite number of Buddhas and Paccekhabuddhas of the past) retain no distinctive attributes or qualities after Parinibbana? That once one attains Nibbana, one would not be able to tell Buddha Gotama from Buddha Kassapa, for instance? I am not referring to ‘physical’ appearance here at all, that is all gone, but to the distinguishing ‘non-material ‘presence of such. What constitutes that? (Or is that State purely a subjective one?). What’s more, seeing that ‘this sansara has no discernible beginning’, then there could never have been a time when the mind was free or existed independently of hadaya vatthu, pasada rupa and pancakkhandha.. meaning, there can be no talk of regaining our pure and pristine nature, (as some schools teach), a ‘return to oneself,’ free from defilements – just because defilements were always there with oneself.
I find it difficult to even consider the idea that they are now ‘undifferentiated’, like identical parts out of the factory production line, or that they have been ‘absorbed’ into a mass of ‘being’ or ‘be-ness’ (all Mahāyāna nonsense). And if ‘individuality’ of some sort is retained (as I think the case must be) was that individuality not acquired precisely from the experiences in sansara, i.e. by having gone through an infinite number of sets of pasada rupa, rupakkhandha and hadaya vatthu? There would not be any ‘enslaving attachment’, to any one or anything, that is clear.
One important thing I keep in mind, even as I am thinking and writing all this. Whatever it is, the answer is there somewhere. It cannot be something unknown or unknowable. It is only that I am ignorant of it. Surely, all those Arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Buddhas realized that Nibbana, having had a glimpse of it, is not only the ending of suffering (i.e.conductive to a ‘neutral’ state, to freedom from suffering), but a positive and unsurpassable state of Absolute and Ultimate Bliss.
May 15, 2020 at 9:54 am #29610LalKeymaster
“So an Arahant will create neither a set of pasada rupa (and therefore no pancakkhandha) nor a hadaya vatthu.”
This should be stated as: “An Arahant will not create a hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa for a FUTURE EXISTENCE.”
– That is why an Arahant is NOT reborn ANYWHERE in the 31 realms.
– Any rebirth is associated with a hadaya vatthu (and a set of pasada rupa, other than for an arupavacara Brahma).
The pancakkhandha of that lifestream WILL REMAIN in this world (in the “nama loka.”)
– But that is just a record of all activities of that lifestream UPTO the moment of Parinibbana.
– Nothing will be added to that RECORD after the Parinibbana since there is no living-being generating citta.
– All records of previous Buddhas, Arahants remain. That is how Buddha Gotama was able to provide account about previous Buddhas, by looking at their records in the “nama loka.
I suggest re-reading several recent posts on the Five Aggregates, and the post on Nibbana referred to below.
I think your other questions are related to that.
– An Arahant lives life just like us UNTIL Parinibbana.
– An Arahant is IN this world UNTIL Parinibbana (full Nibbana). That lifestream DOES NOT EXIST in this world after Prinibbana. It is in the asankata dhatu (full Nibbaba) AFTER the death of the physical body.
– See, “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World.”
Y not wrote: “Surely, all those Arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Buddhas realized that Nibbana, having had a glimpse of it, is not only the ending of suffering (i.e.conductive to a ‘neutral’ state, to freedom from suffering), but a positive and unsurpassable state of Absolute and Ultimate Bliss.”
“Nibbanic bliss” (after Parinibbana) is NOT a vedana (feelings). Anything that is in “this world of 31 realms” including vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana, and rupa (material forms) are NOT in Nibbana.
– The bliss is to stop ANY and ALL future suffering.
– It is critical to read and understand the post on Nibbana above.
May 15, 2020 at 11:42 am #29613cubibobiParticipant
“It is in the asankata dhatu (full Nibbaba) AFTER the death of the physical body.”
So another way we can say anything about Nibbana is asankata dhatu. Short of parinibbana, is this what is “experienced” by someone in Nirodha samapatti?
And this asankata dhatu must be “one of a kind”. All other dhatu, the kind made out of the maha bhuta, are “sankata”, correct?
May 15, 2020 at 12:43 pm #29614LalKeymaster
“So another way we can say anything about Nibbana is asankata dhatu. Short of parinibbana, is this what is “experienced” by someone in Nirodha samapatti?”
Yes. Nirodha samapatti means “without any citta”. Nothing about this “world” is experienced.
“And this asankata dhatu must be “one of a kind”. All other dhatu, the kind made out of the maha bhuta, are “sankata”, correct?”
Yes. Everything in ‘this world” is included in the six dhatu of pathavī dhātu, āpo dhātu, tejo dhātu, vāyo dhātu, ākāsa dhātu, viññāṇa dhātu.
– asankata dhatu is devoid of any of that.
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