Reply To: Something lasting

#22497
firewns
Participant

y not:

Previously you wrote: ‘Not that it (the flame) has not gone anywhere, because that would not be consistent with Nibbana being icca, sukkha and atta, simply that we can have no conception of where it has gone. Certainly beyond the 31 realms in sansara’.

Somehow, it seems to me that implicit in these statements is the view that the flame has some kind of identity of its own. But can the identity of the flame be established apart from its patavi, apo, tejo and vayo dhatu? If its patavi, apo, tejo and vayo dhatu have passed away and do not arise again, then where is the flame?

It is like if you try to find the essence of a table in its parts, you cannot find it. Is the table referring to the tabletop without its legs? Or is it referring to the legs of the table without the tabletop?

In the Anuradha Sutta (SN 22.86), Ven Anuradha learns from the Buddha that when he could not pin down the truth or reality of The Buddha even in the present life, it would not be valid for him to describe the fate of The Buddha after Parinibbana as otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death.

Instead through a series of wise questions, The Buddha skilfully explained to Ven Anuradha about the anicca, dukkha and anatta nature of the five khandhas and that The Buddha Himself could not be equated with the five khandhas: rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara or vinnana, nor could He be found as a part of them, nor apart from them, nor could He even be found in them as an aggregated whole.

Instead, The Buddha only describes dukkha and its cessation, which is referring to paticca samuppada cycles. Elsewhere in numerous suttas, The Buddha has described that what is erroneously taken to be the Self is actually a collection of processes of PS.

For example in Channa Sutta (SN 22.90): (“Everything exists”: That is one extreme. “Everything doesn’t exist”: That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: (PS))

Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) is also a useful and similar read. It helped Ven Yamaka correct his erroneous view of self-identity to attain Nibbana.

Hope this helps!