Perceiving the sensual world

Thank you, Yash and Gad!

1. I listened to most of the discourse. It is good. In particular, after around the 1-hour mark, Thero’s discussion of the “origins of the sensual pleasures” is excellent. As he explains it is made up by the mind. That is what I called “distorted saññā” in my recent posts.

• He discusses how “distorted saññā” arises. For example, the actual origin of a “taste” is a chemical signal that the brain receives. That signal is taken as a “pleasurable” by the mind. Based on that, the mind attaches with raga, dosa, and moha, and generates a “defiled saññā.”

2. The critical point here is that the receptiors in a pig’s tongue are wired differently compared to a human’s. 

• Thus, while a a piece of rotten meat will taste great for a pig, it tastes yucky/disgusting for a human.
• In the same way, rotten meat or feces will smell bad for a pig, but a human finds that smell repulsive.
• It is just a matter of how sensory receptors are wired differently in a pig versus a human.

3. The second critical point is: That “wiring” is done by kammic energy.

• The “wiring” matches the “gati” of each sentient being.
• I will discuss that in upcoming posts.

4. Therefore, that discussion will help you understand my recent posts discussing “distorted saññā” and “defiled saññā.”

• See, for example, #8 and #12 of “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment” and #9 of “Sotapanna Stage and Distorted/Defiled Saññā.”

5. There is nothing intrinsically “tasty” or “disgusting” in a piece of rotten meat or anything else! 

• The same holds for all sensory inputs. A given object that looks desirable to one species may appear repulsive to another species. We don’t find grass to have any appeal, but a lush patch of grass looks appealing to cows. Even among humans, “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder” as the commonly used saying goes.
• How “distorted saññā” gives rise to “mind-made vedanā” may be hard to believe but that is the truth discovered by the Buddha.

6. Types of vedanā (including “mind-made vedanā”) are discussed in many posts : For example, “Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipāka?” and “Vēdanā and Samphassa-Jā-Vēdanā – More Than Just Feelings.”

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namo0804, Jorg, Jittananto, Yash RS

I don’t think normal people can recall the taste of ice cream as taste is a very difficult thing to recall. The same is true of smells and tactile sensations, which is why we value having physical bodies to the degree that we do; so we can make contact with those things. By contrast, you can recall sights and sounds, although, they will of course be distorted.

Yash asked: “Does an Anagami forget how a particular pleasure feels?”

An Anagami or Arahant would still taste the flavor of ice cream. They still get the “distorted sanna” of the flavor of ice cream or the lovely smell of a rose.
– But their minds don’t get to the next step of attaching to that and making it a “defiled sanna/vinnana.”
– Their minds have comprehended the fact that the “flavor of ice cream” or the “beauty of a person” is made up the mind according to the existence (bhava.) That is why while humans experience a “foul odor” from rotten meat/feces, a pig loves that odor and tastes it delicious too. Please read the new post carefully.

“Does this affect the memory power/recalling power of the Anagami?”
– No.

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Yash RS

It is correct to say that thiniking about chocolate can recall the “chocolate taste.”
– Even an Arahant can recall that taste. However, it is only a “DISTORTED sanna” for an Arahant. Arahant’s mind KNOWS that it is a MIRAGE and thus would not attach to it.
– For a puthujjana, that “distorted sanna” instantaneously leads to a “DEFILED sanna” and a “DEFILED vinnana”. The mind automatically adds raga and moha (for chocolate taste), and that is why it becomes DEFILED.

The Buddha said that the mind is the fastest entity in the world.

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Yash RS

Of course.

• They can also watch an “X-rated movie” without generating any lust. They can see “beautiful people” as such (just like a puthujjana), but their minds don’t get any “pleasure” from that illusion. It’s the same with tasty food. They taste the food to be ‘”tasty” because that is how their physical bodies originated (that is explained with the “uppatti bhavanga” but it is not necessary to understand the mechanism;  if one is knowledgeable in Abhidhamma that also can be understood.)
• There is no difference between that and recalling one’s own previous experiences.

They fully understand that “beauty, taste, etc.” are mind-made. 

• It is like uncovering the “trick” involved in a magic show. Then one can see it is just a “trick” and the ‘magic show” will not bring any pleasure.
• However, enjoying a magic show is temporary and does not have drastic consequences. Enjoying “sensory pleasures based on distorted sanna” can be deadly. That is because people tend to engage in immoral activities (stealing, lying, sexual misconduct, and even killing) as a consequence of such “distorted sanna.” Such actions (kamma) will bring their consequences (kamma vipaka) in this life itself, and also rebirths in the apayas.
• Once fully comprehended (with the breaking of both ditthi vipallasa and sanna vipallasa), a mind will not see any value in enjoying “sensory pleasures.”
• That is why it is all about learning the true teachings of the Buddha. That knowledge (panna) itself is enough to break all samsaric bonds and attain Nibbana in this life itself. That is the same as “uncovering the pabhassara mind” by removing the layers of dirt/defilements. It all happens with the cultivation of knowledge (panna.)

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Jittananto, Tobi-Wan Kenobi, Yash RS

Namo Tassa Bhagawato Arahato Samma Sambuddhassa

Thank Sriman Yash RS for the post and Gad, Tobi, Dawson and of course our beloved Lal Sir for participating in this  critical post.

 If ok, the following may be considered for further discussion to understand better its meditative aspects.

 Lal Sir: The critical point here is that the receptiors in a pig’s tongue are wired differently from those in a human’s. 

• Thus, while a piece of rotten meat will taste great for a pig, it tastes yucky/disgusting for a human.
• In the same way, rotten meat or feces will smell bad for a pig, but a human finds that smell repulsive.
• It is just a matter of how sensory receptors are wired differently in a pig versus a human.

I would like to start with “iccha” as liking. In my land it is called “isttham”. I like (istham) “X” very much.  

I would also like to suggest that for the purposes of the discussion, unless it becomes too illogical, we may use iccha to encompass different intensities or its other family members, such as raga and lobha, as well as different modes and combinations, such as Kama raga and so on.

Seeing a pig eating feces,  and myself liking different things, the first lesson I can learn is iccha has the quality to make one blind. 

Isn’t that what I see when I see the Pig cherishing feces? In a similar vein, I, too, am blind; I like to smoke, etc. 

No matter what,  I want it (X, Y, Z). I know it’s wrong!  but I want it! These are some standard templates of its (blindness)  manifestations.

Then such blindness also points to being afflicted(with blindness), suffering from a disease, or being blindly carried away by the flood—all of which can be summed up under “Dukkha.”

The third sign, which is evident, is a sense of “distaste” behind all tastes (viraga). Pigs like to eat feces, I like to eat ice cream, and cows like to eat grass—isn’t there a sense of “distaste”  in “liking some taste”?

Throughout the day or years, I have a liking for different feelings that originate from the body.

in one of the sub-commentaries, I read a line that says like flies which come running to dirt and feces, my eyes go running after body parts of the other gender…..

There is a sense of distatse, repungence in “liking a taste”. . In my telugu language there is a perfectly fitting word- “Vegatu”. 

For example, you continue eating sweet(s), and after some rounds, it tastes/gets “vegatu”!

So 3 things are evident in “ichham for sensual pleasures”: Blindness, Dukkha, and a Sense of Distaste. 

Is it logical? Sirs?.

Are these signs helpful in achieving a better sense of freedom and awareness in our lives? How do we develop them further? Does it constitute a practice? Are these 3 traits something that can be concretely seen and developed, and where do they eventually resolve or point to? Is there any aspect that I am missing? Import? The bigger picture?

That is it sir,  then ….please add, correct, and improve

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Yash RS, Jittananto

Excellent. You are on the right track. Let me highlight some critical issues.

1. You like to eat ice cream and smoke because that gives you “mind-made” pleasure. If ice cream has an innate “deliciousness,” all living beings should have the desire to eat it. Not even all humans like to smoke. These are habits (part of gati) that we cultivate.

• Even the desire for sex is the same. Only those in kama loka see it as “giving pleasure.” To cultivate jhana and to be born a Brahma, one must see it as a hindrance to getting to a “higher stage.”
• As long as we crave those things, we will be trapped in the kama loka. Paticca Samuppada (“pati icca leading to sama uppada” means such cravings are perpetuated in the rebirth process.)

2. Such cravings can lead to worse outcomes if we engage in immoral deeds to “have more of them.” 

• For example, some people take bribes to make more money in seeking more sensory pleasure. Since that is an immoral deed, it could lead to a birth matching that lowly deed by being born a pig. Since that birth corresponds to “distasteful actions,” pigs crave feces. They get to reap the fruits of their actions. 
• Those who commit violent deeds (killing) are likely to be born lions, tigers, etc., who have to depend on the flesh of other animals. Rebirths are, according to gati.

3. The release from cravings comes from developing a deeper understanding of these Paticca Samuppada processes. 

• It is not easy to give up cravings because those are built into our births. But the only way out is to fully understand this vicious cyclic process: Births are according to gati, and gati are hard to break, so one gets trapped!
• As one’s understanding grows, it becomes easier to give up cravings. I know by experience.
• When one begins to understand why the Buddha called “sanna a mirage” and “vinnana a magician,” one’s mind will voluntarily give up those cravings. Here, “sanna” is the “innate sense/feeling” that ice cream or smoking can provide pleasure.
• Again, I refer to the post “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā)” and other posts in the section “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).” 

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Yash RS, Jittananto, gopinadh

I need to clarify the following I wrote above: “1. You like to eat ice cream and smoke because that gives you “mind-made” pleasure. If ice cream has an innate “deliciousness,” all living beings should have the desire to eat it.”

• The “sweet taste of ice cream” is not made up by your mind at that moment. It is built into the human body’s experience of tastiness. Even an Arahant tastes ice cream to be tasty/sweet.
• But that sweet taste is “mind-made” because the human body giving that taste arose via Paticca Samuppada. That happened in a previous life. 
• But if you don’t “see with wisdom” that whole process and keep attaching to that taste, rebirth in kama loka cannot be stopped. An Arahant (or Anagami) feels the taste of ice cream (“rasa paṭisaṁvedī”) but has given up craving (no “rasa rāga paṭisaṁvedī”), not by willpower, but by cultivating wisdom, i.e., seeing how this endless cyclic process operates! See #7 through #9 of the new post “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.”
• P.S. However, the craving for smoking is not “built into your body,” so that can be stopped more easily. Many people have up smoking by seeing the adverse health effects.

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Yash RS, Jittananto

Lal: Even an Arahant tastes ice cream to be tasty/sweet.

Can I clarify that the Arahant will not taste it to be pleasant but netural, because Samphassa-jā-Vedanā do not arise in an Arahant, and Vedanā from sensory inputs other than touch are neutral? That means he would react the same towards ice cream and rotten meat (if it had to be eaten), but he would taste ice cream as sweet and rotten meat as sour, just that he does not find them pleasant or unpleasant.

“Can I clarify that the Arahant will not taste it to be pleasant but netural, because Samphassa-jā-Vedanā do not arise in an Arahant..?”

• The sweet taste of ice cream comes BEFORE the mind gets to the “Samphassa-jā-Vedanā” step. Please re-read the relevant post from which you got the wrong idea.
• If that post is unclear, please quote the unclear passage from the post. I may need to revise it.

In Vedana (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways

It is stated in point 4 that Samphassa-ja-vedana “do not arise in an Arahant”

Since

1. We only experience vedana from either vipaka or samphassa-ja-vedana.
2. We experience pleasant and unpleasant sensations from vedana
3. Arahant has no samphass-ja-vedana
4. “All vedanā initially coming through the other five sense faculties are neutral, i.e., adukkhamasukha vedanā.”

Then we can conclude that the arahant does not experience pleasant or unpleasant feelings from an ice cream or rotten meat. However he will still taste ice-cream to be sweet, rotten meat to be sour.

You missed the next point on that list.

• “All vedanā initially coming through the other five sense faculties are neutral, i.e., adukkhamasukha vedanā.” But they give rise to “distorted sanna.” 
• For example, the taste of ice cream as sweet is not a vedana, but a “distorted sanna.” Since a puthujjana does not realize that they crave the sweet taste of ice cream, they generate samphassa-ja-vedana based on that craving.
• See, for example, #9 of “Saññā – All Our Thoughts Arise With “Distorted Saññā” Of course, read the whole post to get the idea. 

P.S. I revised the post “Vedana (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways” to include a link to the above post.

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Yash RS

Yes, I agree that the arahant can taste sweetness, it is part of distorted sanna. I am asking if he perceives it to be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral.

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Jittananto, Jittananto

He perceives it as pleasant but does not attach to it because he fully comprehends that it is a “sanna made up by the mind.”

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pathfinder, Jittananto

Thank you. I just found it strange that he experiences neutral vedana (neither pleasant nor unpleasant) but finds it pleasant from sañña. I thought that whether we feel something is pleasant or unpleasant is from vedana itself. I will need to re-read the posts on distorted sañña and investigate.