Compilation of my thoughts

Excellent. 

1. The last verse captures the essence. “Bhaya” is ‘danger,” and “mahabbhaya” (mahā + bhaya) is “great danger.”

2. An average human perceives the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure.” An extreme example is raping a woman seeking sensory gratification. That involves vaci (planning/thinking) and kaya (implementing) abhisankhara. It could be enjoyable at that time.

• However, he will pay for that brief gratification for millions of years. Unimaginable but true!
• That is “the great danger.”

P. S.

3. It is a good idea to gradually contemplate the danger of even excessive sensory pleasures (such as craving tasty foods, music, etc.) See “Son’s Flesh” which is the translation of the “Puttamaṁsa Sutta (SN 12.63).”

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dosakkhayo

Good idea. Thank you!

I added the following to the post:

13. The “Vicayahāravibhaṅga” in  the Petakopadesa states the following: “Saṅkhāradukkhatāya pana loko anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā muccati, tasmā saṅkhāradukkhatā dukkhaṁ lokassāti katvā dukkhamassa mahabbhayanti.”

• The meaning is “If saṅkhāra-dukkha can be overcome, one will get to Nibbāna. Therefore, saṅkhāra-dukkha is the one with great danger (mahabbhaya or mahā + bhaya.)”
• An average human perceives the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure.” An extreme example is raping a woman seeking sensory gratification. That involves vaci (planning/thinking) and kāya (implementing) abhisaṅkhāra. It could be enjoyable at that time. However, he will pay for that brief gratification for millions of years. Unimaginable but true!
• Thus, any such “pleasure” is short-lived (vipariṇāma dukkha) and will bring unimaginable dukkha-dukkha in the future. One must “see” the “hidden suffering in sensory pleasures” before getting to the Sotapanna stage. 
• Until then, humans see the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure.”

Good insights, Dosakkhayo!

Sakkaya ditthi can also be analyzed as “sa + kaya” or “my + kaya.”

• But it is neither mine nor someone else’s. It arises due to causes and conditions (Paticca Samuppada.)

• Many suttas explain that “this body is not yours; not someone else’s either.” It is a “hetu/phala.”

  See, for example, “Natumha Sutta (SN 12.37).”

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dosakkhayo, LayDhammaFollower

Until then, humans see the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure”.

Is this “pleasure” also described by the word Assāda, as in Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana?

Fascinating thread with much insight. Thank you!

“Is this “pleasure” also described by the word Assāda, as in Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana?”

Yes. That is indeed the critical point.

• Buddha never denied that there are “pleasurable things” in this world. That is why beings are trapped in the rebirth process. They look at only the “immediate gratification” (Assāda) offered by sensory pleasures. 
• The “previously unheard teachings of the Buddha” is that those “pleasurable things” have “hidden suffering” (Ādīnava.)
• When one comprehends the Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana, one can see how such Assāda leads to Ādīnava. See “Understanding the Terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
• That is when one becomes a Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami and starts striving for Nissarna,  which means “stop traveling the rebirth process.” 
• There is a series of posts on “Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana.”

See, for example, “Baḷisa Sutta (SN 17.2),” where the Buddha compared those who have not comprehended Buddha Dhamma to a fish who only sees the bait as “pleasure.” They do not see the “hidden suffering” in sensory pleasures. Until they see it, they will be trapped in the rebirth process (samsara.)

• In that sutta, the Buddha compared sensory pleasures to “Māra’s hook.”

Yes. That is correct. 

• An Arahant would see, hear, etc., but not have ayatana since they don’t have anusaya or gati. Thus, there will be no abhisankhara generated based on seeing, hearing, etc.

1. Those ideas (Dosakkhayo‘s) about sakkaya ditthi are good but mostly mundane.

• At the root level, sakkaya ditthi means the view that “pursuing worldly things can bring happiness.” 
• Once one can see the “big picture of the Buddha” that spans over the rebirth process and the fact that a “suffering-free mind” is hidden under layers of defilements, that view will be eliminated. Sakkaya ditthi will disappear, and the tendency to pursue worldly things will diminish when one comprehends that.
• I have been discussing that in recent posts and tried to summarize it in the latest post: “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.”

2. Silabba Paramasa

• I may not have discussed “silabbata paramasa” sufficiently. 
• “Paramasa” means a “conviction” that some way of doing things can DEFINITELY get one to the goal.
• When the goal is to attain Nibbana, “silabbata paramasa” means “following a specific set of precepts/rituals” can get one there. However, while moral conduct is necessary to attain Nibbana, it is NOT sufficient. Nibbana is attained by cultivating wisdom (panna), and morality is a necessary CONDITION.

3. The various categories of “conditions to attain Nibbana” (seven types of anusaya, ten samyojana, four yogā, four Asava, etc) are discussed in the post “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna.” To categorize into raga, dosa, moha would be as follows:

Raga categories:

• kama raga
• rupa raga
• arupa raga

Dosa categories:

• patigha
• uddacca

Moha categories:

• sakkaya ditthi
• vicikicca
• silabbata paramasa
• mana
• avijja

Under the moha category, sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, and silabbata paramasa are ditthi (wrong views). Mana (the idea of “me/myself”) and avijja arise due to avijja. Uddacca (“unsettled mind”) could be categorized under avijja or dosa.

• Of course, everything will eventually be due to avijja!

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dosakkhayo, Jittananto

I understand that a sotāpanna is said to have eradicated sakkaya ditthi. However, even though a sotāpanna has achieved this, he can still have a strong attachment to kāma ragā. This attachment depends on his gāti, and he may continue to pursue the things of this world. However, he will never commit evil acts to acquire them. I have been considering that belief in the personality might be more appropriate since it eradicates all micchādiṭṭhi. If I have made any mistakes, please correct me. I am still transitioning and learning about many Dhamma concepts that I previously understood in a worldly way. Most of my statements are based on what I learned before I encountered the Puredhamma site. Thank you for sharing the essay Dosakkhayo; it has highlighted my gaps in certain concepts.

This is an example of a publication on Sakkaya ditthi.

SAKKAYA DITTHI: SELF-IDENTIFICATION VIEW IN THERAVADA BUDDHISM

Sakkaya ditthi is the wrong view that mistakenly identifies with one of the five aggregates of clinging that constitute the Psycho-physical complex described as a being or personality as “self”. 

There are three possible ways in which self-identification can take place.

This is mine – due to craving (tanha)

This I am – due to conceit (mana)

This is me – due to the wrong view (ditthi)

Gad wrote: “Sakkaya ditthi is the wrong view that mistakenly identifies with one of the five aggregates of clinging that constitute the Psycho-physical complex described as a being or personality as “self”.”

• So, a Sotapanna does not have the sense of a “me”? Would not consider the house, car, or anything else as his?

You are still quoting standard phrases: “No, he still has this wrong perception but he will never fall into the views related to Sakkaya ditthi.” That does not say anything about the meaning of “sakkaya ditthi.” I asked a couple of direct questions above.

• What do you understand by “sakkaya ditthi“? If you can explain in your own words, I can comment.
• I am not trying to “get you.” If you genuinely want to learn Dhamma, you need to try to understand what you don’t know. If you don’t want to answer, that is fine. 

One problem I have is that I don’t know how much of what I write people understand. I can write many posts, but if I am not addressing issues that people don’t understand, then it is a waste of time.

Excellent.

• You wrote: “Sakkaya ditthi refers to the belief in an unchanging and permanent soul, which can be controlled and passed on from one life to another or can perish with the body depending on the ditthi. A sotāpanna has eliminated these views, but the perception of self still lingers like a bad smell on a washed cloth.”
• That is the explanation I was looking for.

There are three related concepts that the Buddha taught.

• A puthujjana attaches to things with mana (or asmi mana), tanha, and ditthi, in that order. All three arise based on the “distorted sanna” that is built-in to ALL births via Paticca Samuppada.
• Asmi mana is the “sense of self or me,” which is the “deepest layer.” That is eliminated at the Arahant stage.
• Next is tanha (in the form of kama raga, rupa raga, and arupa raga, which value existences in kama, rupa, and arupa loka.) Here, kama raga is removed at the Anagami stage. Rupa raga and arupa raga are removed while on the Arahant magga, i.e., after attaining the Anagami stage.
• The outermost layer  is “sakkaya ditthi.”  That is the VIEW that worldly things have kama guna and thus can bring happiness. That is the first layer of ignorance to be removed at the Sotapanna stage

They are summarized in the verse: “etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti.” It is discussed in the post “Etaṁ Mama, Esohamasmi, Eso Me Attā’ti – What Does It Mean?”

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Yash RS, Jittananto

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me, sir. I have to reread it to make sure I get it right. As I said there are many concepts in transition in my mind that I used to understand in a worldly way.

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dosakkhayo, Yash RS

Yes. The concepts of anicca and anatta embed the critical idea that craving things in this world only leads to suffering.

• Nibbana (Arahanthood) is the end of suffering. It is not the end of a human, a Deva, an animal, or a Brahma; suffering continues as long as one of those labels can be assigned. A Buddha or an Arahant does not belong to any of those categories.

Yes. Your summary is good.

You wrote: “I cautiously speculate that phassa arising from indriya might not be discussed at all in Paticca Samuppada.”

• That is correct. Phassa and samphassa are entirely different.
• Phassa is a cetasika that arises in ALL cittas. In contrast, samphassa means “defiled sensory contact,” which appears in Paticca Samuppada.
• Possible confusion arises due to the uddesa (brief) version of Paticca Samuppada:  “salayatana paccaya phassa.” That really means “salayatana paccaya samphassa.”
• See “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa.”

You wrote: “The statement “the sun is not a planet” is astronomically true. And “the sun is anicca” is a Dhammically true statement. Both are true and they’re talking about the sun, but astronomy is not Buddha Dhamma. The same logic applies here. (Of course, Abhidhamma IS Buddha Dhamma.) That’s the reason even if one is good at Abhidhamma, they may not have gotten any magga phala.”

• That is quite true. Some people know how to recite Abhidhamma, but have not fully comprehended the ideas. My goal is to try to explain Abhidhamma concepts in simple language.

I think the data flow is like this, using sight as an example:

External rupa –> physical eyes –> brain –> pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu (which vibrates 17 times that make up a citta vithi)

Phassa actually happens at the pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu, correct? If it is samphassa, then the cittā that arise are contaminated (in 9 stages I believe); and if it’s a neutral phassa then the cittā that arise are not contaminated, such as cittā of an arahant.

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dosakkhayo

Cubibobi asked: “Phassa actually happens at the pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu, correct?”

• Yes. 
• Good explanation. “Phassa ” takes place at the initial sensory contact. “Samphassa” happens in response to that sensory contact (if the mind attaches to that sensory input.)

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dosakkhayo

The following essay is from Dosakkhayo:

Thank you for the essay, Dosakkhayo.

• Because of my travel schedule, I do not have time to comment properly, but the following are some key points.

1. Your description of a pancadvara citta vithi followed by three manodvara citta vithi is correct.

2. The whole PS process runs within EACH javana citta, i.e., “avijja paccaya sankhara” to the end.

3. In subsequent javana cittas, all relevant terms grow in strength. For example, vinnana, namarupa, etc, grow in strength. Furthermore, those changes are taken into account in Tadarammana (T) at the end of each javana series.

The real-time PS process is discussed in the following section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”

The changes in Tadarammana (T) are discussed in the posts here: “Search Results for: temporary bhavaṅga state.”

• For the kind of analysis you did, it is necessary to understand the concept of a “temporary bhavaṅga state.” As more citta vithi run, the mindset (T) changes with the flow of javana citta.

You can ask questions as you read those posts. Take your time, and don’t rush. It takes time to absorb some of these concepts.

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dosakkhayo

 Hi dosakkhayo great essay !!!🙏🏿

Dosakkhayo : It also implies that no one can take responsibility for another person’s actions because no one can perform kamma on behalf of someone else or experience the results (vipaka) of another’s actions. This is the basis of sila and bhavana.

Me : Does that mean that it is useless to perform good deeds and transfer them to apaya beings like petas (hungry ghosts) in order to alleviate their suffering?

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dosakkhayo

 Dosakkhayo : No. If a peta receives transferred merit, it means that the conditions for the manifestation of that peta’s past kamma have been met. Therefore, in this case, the peta has received the vipaka of their own kamma.

Me: Yes,that makes senses  

Thank you !!

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dosakkhayo

That is correct. In one way of looking at the “big picture,” attachment to sensory inputs or arammana  (with tanha and upadana) is the root cause of suffering.

• The amazing fact (that no one else has fully explained with Paticca Samuppada) is that our craving for “worldly pleasures” is based on a grand illusion; our perceptions (saññā) are inherently distorted. The Buddha called saññā a mirage in the “Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta (SN 22.95),” and we discussed that in the post, “Sotapanna Stage and Distorted/Defiled Saññā.”
• Most sukha/dukkha (or, more precisely, somanassa/domanassa) vedana are “mind-made” based on “distorted saññā” built into our physical bodies (via Paticca Samuppada.)

The main points are as follows:

1. Everything in this world is made of “suddhāṭṭhaka” (sometimes written as suddhāshtaka). 

• Suddhāṭṭhaka (“suddha” for “pure” or fundamental” + “aṭṭha” or “eight”) means a unit of matter consisting of eight fundamental entities: Four of these belong to the “bhūta” stage of pathavi, āpo, tejo, and vāyo arising due to avijjā. The other four of vaṇṇa,  gandha, rasa, and oja arise due to taṇhā.

2. The latter four entities are the ones giving rise to the perception (saññā) or sense of “pleasure” in worldly things: 

• Vaṇṇa, gandha, rasa, and oja, respectively, make some things give rise to attractive sights, smells, tastes, and “generative power.” 
• The basic ideas are discussed in “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka.“

3. The point mentioned in #2 gives rise to a “distorted saññā” of “tasty foods, beautiful sights, pleasing sounds, etc. 

• Read again the post “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā),” and you may be able to get the idea.
• All matter (including our physical bodies) is based on suddhāṭṭhaka. That is how the “distorted saññā” is built into our physical bodies.

I will gradually discuss this profound point in detail in upcoming posts.

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Jittananto, dosakkhayo

— From dosakkhayo:
“I believe that the core keyword of Buddha Dhamma is addiction.”

I found contemplation in terms of addiction or intoxication is of big benefit. We can relate to this since we are familiar with being addicted to one thing or another, and experiencing relief (niramisa sukha) of breaking free from the addiction.

Addiction or intoxication is majji, and I’d like to share two posts that have helped me understand this concept.— (1)

Majjhimā Patipadā – Way to Relinquish Attachments to this World

Bullet #1 explains the deeper aspect of the Path as more than just a “middle path”, but a path free of intoxication.— (2)

The Five Precepts – What the Buddha Meant by Them
Bullet #8 explains the deeper aspect of the 5th precept as also avoiding being intoxicated.

The 5th precept is so easily misunderstood as just abstaining from alcohol or substances. In my native language, this precept is called the “wine precept”. There are people who follow this precept so strictly, to the point of not taking even a sip of champagne at a wedding, but wantonly breaking other precepts, like musavada for example, without giving it another thought. This precept, when not understood in its deeper aspect, easily leads to silabata paramasa.

Best,
Lang

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dosakkhayo

Cakkhu viññāṇa in “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ“ is already an ajjhatta viññāṇa. However, nava kamma (with strong kammic energy) accumulation starts after the “tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso” step.

• That may not be explained well in the old posts like “Indriya Make Phassa and Āyatana Make Samphassa.”

It is explained better in the newer post, “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.” See #6 of that post.

• I need to go out for a few hours. You can read those two posts carefully and ask further questions. I will have more time later to explain it better if you have questions.

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dosakkhayo

Dosakhayo asked: “So, the altered rupa is bahidda rupa, and cakkuvinneyya rupa is ajjhatta rupa?”

Yes. That can be understood as follows.

1. The “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ“ includes both the bahiddha viññāṇa and the ajjhatta viññāṇa stages. 

2. In #10 of that post, one way to describe the gradual attachment process (within a citta vithi) is stated: “Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā, kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo, kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando,..” Here, ““Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā” represent the bahiddha viññāṇa. Then, “kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo” is the ajjhatta viññāṇa stage. That ajjhatta viññāṇa stage will occur for anyone with kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana, i.e., anyone below the Anagami stage.

3. That same process is described differently in the “Chachakka Sutta (MN 148)” (as described in the other post I mentioned “Indriya Make Phassa and Āyatana Make Samphassa”) as “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.”

4. Both the bahiddha viññāṇa and the ajjhatta viññāṇa stages are included in the “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ” step in that representation.

5. After the “kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo” step comes “kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando.” This is the second step (tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso) in the other representation of the same event: “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.” This step happens based on the “saṅ gati” present at that moment. Thus, even for the same person, the level of attachment depends on the state of the mind at that moment.

6. Note the difference in #2 and #5.

• #2: Regardless of the mindset, ANYONE below the Anagami stage WILL generate the ajjhatta viññāṇa.
• #5: However, a strong attachment to the sensory input with kāmacchanda may not happen for someone in a calm mindset trying to be mindful. Controlling this step with “mindfulness” (sila) can gradually eliminate kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana. Of course, cultivating wisdom (paññā) is also needed. As one cultivates paññā and sila, one’s mind will get to samādhi. That, in turn, will help further cultivate paññā and sila, and so on to elevate all three: sila, samādhi, paññā. Eventually, it is paññā that breaks the kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana. That is the Satipatthana/Anapanasati Bhavana!

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dosakkhayo

Yes. Those are good summaries.

#6 can be improved.

• Vinnanakkhandha synthesizes the above four (nama and rupa).
• Bahidda vinnana (vipaka vinnana) = only nama;  ajjhatta vinnana (kamma vinnana) is the beginning of making namarupa.
• That “namarupa formation” enhances as the mind gets further contaminated in subsequent steps.

#7: Rupakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha help distinguish between nama, rupa, and namarupa (with kamma vinnana).

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dosakkhayo

1. Q1. Does pabhassara citta start in kama or rupa or arupa dhatu? Or it just does not start in any dhatu?

• Pabhassara citta is not present in any dhatu (kama dhatu, rupa dhatu, or arupa dhatu; those are the “initial state of mind upon receiving a sensory input or arammana.) 
• To clarify further, the mind of someone born in kama loka (humans, including Arahants who were born human) will always fall on kama dhatu first. A rupa loka Brahma‘s mind will first fall on rupa dhatu, and an arupa loka Brahma‘s mind will first fall on arupa dhatu.
• Furthermore, if a human is in a rupacavara jhana, his mind will also fall on rupa dhatu upon receiving a new arammana. 

This figure from “Vipariṇāma – Two Meanings.”

• As you can see, the “pabhassara citta” does not fall into any of the three “dhatu” or “loka.”
• It is experienced only at the Arahant-phala moment or later in “Arahant-phala samapatti.”

_______

2. step 2: ajjhatta vinnana “sanna ->sankappa”

• This description is correct.
• The bahidda vinnana has “distorted sanna” but no defilements (raga, dosa, moha.) 
• We mainly restrict our general discussions to kama dhatu, especially in the following.
• Bahidda vinnana becomes an ajjhatta vinnana in a split second for anyone with the five lower samyojana. Thus, an Arahant or Anagami would not enter the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage.

The above chart is from “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”

Once get into the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage, a mind can further contaminate rapidly via several stages, as shown in the above chart.

• Those steps are listed in #10 of the above post. They are essentially the same as Dosakkhayo listed in steps 1 through 5.
• That “expansion” is indicated in the chart. 
• Up to the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the expansion is slow, i.e., kamma accumulation is slow. But at the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, one starts accumulating kamma consciously (with vaci and kaya abhisankhara.) That is why it is called the “nava (new) kamma” stage. Kammic energies to bring vipaka in future lives are generated here.
• As shown in the chart, kamma accumulation accelerates with kamacchanda, kama parilaha, etc., ending with dasa akusala.
• See “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” for details.

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dosakkhayo

Very good!

Yes. 

• Here, “nama” refers to the “impression of an external rupa” that one likes/dislikes. That is what the mind is focused on at that moment.
• “Namarupa” is the “rupa” created by the mind with that kamma vinnana per that impression. Essentially, that is the kammic energy generated to give rise to such a namarupa in the future. 
• The more one does mano, vaci, and kaya (abhi)sankhara (with avijja), the stronger kammic energy becomes.
• That happens because the mind craves (or despises) such a namarupa. This is based on “distorted sanna,” which gives the impression that some things are valuable and can bring happiness: “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā)“

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Waisaka, dosakkhayo

Yes. Dosakkhayo’s above comment provides some critical insights. Let me expand on that a bit more.

• One’s physical and mental bodies arise according to the type of kamma responsible for bringing this existence (bhava) and birth (jati.) 
• For example, a pig is born according to lowly, immoral actions done as a human. Such kamma (probably done with greed) produces an existence that likes “lowly tastes.” Thus, eating garbage/feces produces an “enticing sanna” in a pig. However, that “distorted sanna” cannot lead to strong immoral deeds (akusala kamma) in a pig (or any being in an apaya).
• Strong javana cittas that can bring good or bad outcomes can arise mostly in humans. This is a key nugget from Abhidhamma.
• Now, a human bhava (and jati with a physical body) arises due to a “good kamma vipaka” (via punna abhisankhara), but still “contaminated with kama raga or craving for sensual pleasures.” Therefore, the human body produces an “enticing sanna” only for sugar, cake, pizza, etc., but NOT for garbage/feces. Yet, if a human engages in immoral deeds to acquire such tasty foods by engaging in “lowly deeds” (like stealing or taking bribes, for example) on a regular basis, that can lead to acquiring enough akusala kamma to bring a “pig birth” via a “pig existence.” 

A key point is that the “distorted sanna” is according to the birth. 

• Beings in different realms are born with corresponding “distorted sanna” built-in.
• In another example, rupavacara Brahmas automatically generate “enticing sanna” with their “jhanic thoughts.” Their existence arose due to the cultivation of jhana as humans.

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dosakkhayo, Jittananto

Excellent!

“Anicca signifies the discrepancy between the natural law and our distorted expectation that things will unfold as we desire.”

This is an interesting point. If I were to understand it correctly, if we see a puddle of water evaporate, that is not anicca to us because we do not cling on to it, but it is also true that the puddle of water cannot stay like that permanently. 

Therefore when the Buddha says rupa/ vedana/ sanna/ sankhara/ vinnana is anicca, he is only referring to those of pancauppadanakhanda. Would you say so?

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Jittananto, dosakkhayo

Yes! Even though we can talk about “impermanence/decay” of external things (which is also true), the main point is the anicca nature of the panca upadana khanda.

• Those rupas that the mind makes (“cakkhu vinneyya rupa“) are of the anicca nature. Those are the types of rupa that we hope to attain/acquire. Even if such a material rupa is acquired, we cannot keep it forever, or even until death, most of the time. for example, we like to eat tasty food, and most of the time, we can accomplish that. (But in reality, all that effort was in vain because the “tastiness” is an illusion!) Furthermore, if we want more of that food, we have to do it all over, too. There are many implications to contemplate.
• Thus, our efforts (sankhara) are of the anicca nature (pointless, fruitless); our expectations for such rupa (vinnana) are of the anicca nature.

P.S. The mind-made “cakkhu vinneyya rupa” is made with the “distorted sanna.” Of course, Arahants do not get to that step, even though they also get the “distorted sanna” (of tasty food, for example.)

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pathfinder, Jittananto, dosakkhayo

Does this explanation apply to this situation? Let’s take the example of a married man who can no longer be satisfied with his wife. He would really like to relive the flame he experienced on the first day of their marriage. However, he is unable to recreate the happiness of the first days and starts to get depressed. In other situations, depending on his gatī, he may indulge in adultery or a secret affair. I don’t know if this is correct, but a sotāpanna can be in a dull marriage, right? However, since he or she knows about the inability to maintain feelings to our liking, he or she will not indulge in adultery out of boredom.

That is hard to say. All we know is that a Sotapanna is incapable of doing an “apayagami deed,” i.e., one can lead to rebirth in an apaya.

• Since they still have kama raga, they may be tempted to engage in some inappropriate behavior. 
• If one has not fully grasped the concept of “distorted sanna,” temptations triggered by kama raga can be strong. 

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dosakkhayo, Jittananto

Thank you for this explanation, Sir.🙏🏿

Does this mean that an arahant does not experience anicca nature, since the arahant does not have panca upadana khanda? Same for dukkha (but he would still experience dukkha dukkha, physical suffereing) and anatta.

Since the arahant will see everything as like water evaporating, it is not anicca to him since he does not cling on to it too, it is just a natural phenomenon. He doesn’t even have to contemplate death of his parents as anicca! It will just be like water evaporating. But for those below the arahant level, they will need to continue to contemplate those that they cling on to as anicca.  

Arahants do not have panca upadana khanda (i.e., do not generate craving for anything in this world) because they have understood anicca nature.

• You need to read and think more about the concept of anicca. See “Anicca – True Meaning“

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pathfinder

Hello Pathfinder,

This is just my understanding, hope it helps in any way. Anything that’s conditioned, dependently originated or the “all” (sabba) from this world including arahants and Sammasambuddha’s experiences anicca. As well anicca takes effect regardless if one “clings or attaches” to the 5 aggregates or not. The only time when something is not anicca or doesn’t experience it is when it’s “not” conditioned or dependently originated which would be nicca.

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pathfinder, pathfinder, Jittananto

Hi TripleGemStudent

Yes, that is what I initially thought as well. However, I found that dosakkhayo’s point makes sense as well: “Anicca signifies the discrepancy between the natural law and our distorted expectation that things will unfold as we desire” 

If we take anicca to be “not icca/ not to our liking”, then it implies that we have icca for it in the first place. But do we have icca for everything? Would we ever think of a puddle of water as either nicca or anicca? If we do not cling to the puddle of water, it is neither nicca or anicca to us. Since anicca, dukkha, and anatta are linked (Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā – whatever is anicca is dukkha, whatever is dukkha is anatta) if the puddle of water does not cause dukkha to us, then it would not be anicca too by the logical statement. The puddle of water will only cause dukkha if we attach to it. Which is why I think it can be helpful to think of anicca with respect to clinging/ panca upadana khanda, on top of how things are conditioned, and not that every single thing is anicca.

May you Pathfinder and all of us living beings be well. 

“I think it can be helpful to think of anicca with respect to clinging/ panca upadana khanda, on top of how things are conditioned”. 

 “If we take anicca to be “not icca/ not to our liking”, then it implies that we have icca for it in the first place”

I completely agree that it’s helpful and I’ll add “needed” to think of anicca in relation to the clinging / pancaupadanakkhanda. Definitely beneficial, lots to observe, learn and realize from this teaching. Before last year, I feel most of what I learned and understood over the years in regards to anicca was in respect to pancaupadanakkhanda. But recently something that really helped me to further my understanding of anicca and one of the most simple example I can think of to share what helped me is be based on some modification of your words “I think it can be helpful to think of anicca with respect to how things are conditioned on top of the pancaupadanakkhanda”. The conditioning here I’m talking about isn’t just about the akusala-mula being initiated or with some form of attachment, but relating to all of our experiences / phenomenon. This is my understanding, as long as one is a satta anywhere in the 31 realms, anicca takes effect regardless if one has icca / attachments (tanha, asava’s, anusaya’s) or not, even the Noble 8 Fold Path itself is anicca. 

“the puddle of water does not cause dukkha to us, then it would not be anicca too by the logical statement”.

I believe to understand your logical / reasoning, to me the puddle of water or our experiencing of it is anicca itself and like you said “Since anicca, dukkha, and anatta are linked (Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā – whatever is anicca is dukkha, whatever is dukkha is anatta)”. Since I said our experiencing of the puddle of water is anicca itself, then that means dukkha and anatta follow. My understanding of dukkha doesn’t necessarily just mean “suffering”, but can mean different things depending on the context. Regardless whether the puddle of water cause us dukkha (based on attachment) or not, it would still be considered dukkha to me. If one is not attached to the experience / phenomenon even with right view, I would still consider that as dukkha as well since it’s anicca, but not the dukkha that comes with attachment or the akusala-mula P.S.  

“and not that every single thing is anicca”. 

If I may ask, based on Paramattha Sacca (4 ultimate truths) rupa, citta, cetasika and nibbana. Besides nibbana, which of rupa, citta or cetasika is not anicca? 

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pathfinder

1. One will engage in activities of the anicca nature as long as one does not see the futility of such actions.

• That is an excellent way to understand what is meant by “anicca.”

2. Initially, it is OK to talk about the “anicca nature of external things.”

• However, the Buddha taught about a mental process that leads to suffering. That “mental process” is Paticca Samuppada. 
• Ignorance of #1 above makes us engage in unfruitful activities: “avijja paccaya sankhara.” For example, seeking happiness in sensory pleasures is of the anicca nature.
• Two most recent posts are also based on that point: “Introduction – What is Suffering?” and “Citta Evolving To Viññāna And Viññākkhanda In Nine Steps. ” Most posts on this website explain different aspects of that point.

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pathfinder, TripleGemStudent

Very good.

However, there is a deeper issue related to your following statement: “However, external objects composed of apo, tejo, pathavi, and vayo are neutral.”

All objects (living and inert) are made of suddhāṭṭhaka (meaning eight components). In addition to apo, tejo, pathavi, and vayo, there are four more: vaṇṇa, gandha, rasa, and oja. 

• The former four components are made (in the mind) via avijja, and the latter four are made with tanha (P.S. craving for worldly things, which depends on one’s gati. Humans crave things different from those animals crave, etc.) 
• That is the deeper explanation for the “distorted sanna” that is built into not only our manomaya kaya (a few suddhāṭṭhaka) and the physical body (innumerable suddhāṭṭhaka) but also into inert matter (sweetness of sugar, etc.). 

I tried to explain that in my comment on August 12, 2024 at 6:46 am, in the following thread: “Scientists getting a glimpse of distorted saññā.”

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dosakkhayo

Yes. All external objects (rocks, trees, etc) are also made of suddhāṭṭhaka. Are they not?

• I would not say they are “contaminated.” In Buddha Dhamma, “contamination” refers to raga, dosa, and moha. Rocks or trees don’t generate thoughts. 
• Everything in this world is made of suddhāṭṭhaka. 

But this is a deeper point, which will become clear as one makes progress. Yet, if one understands that a suddhāṭṭhaka means eight components, it should be evident. In addition to apo, tejo, pathavi, and vayo, there are four more: vaṇṇa, gandha, rasa, and oja. The latter four arise due to cravings. 

• I see that I forgot to mention the post where this is discussed: “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka“
• Each living being “prepares” its future births. All living beings (collectively) prepare the world they live in.

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Jittananto, dosakkhayo

The following is the explanation that I referred to in my earlier comment. I had referred to the post “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka” there. Did you not read it? If there are questions, you (or anyone else) can quote any unclear statement and ask questions.

1. Yes. Our physical bodies are made to be compatible with our perceptions. We taste honey as sweet, and it is also nutritious. 

• On the other hand, we taste rotten meat to be yucky, and we will also get sick if we eat it. Our bodies are not “compatible” with extracting nutrition from rotten meat.
• On the other hand, pigs like the taste of rotten meat, and their bodies are compatible with extracting nutrition from it.

2. Here is a profound point to consider: Everything in the material world is made of suddhāṭṭhaka, which are the “basic building blocks” according to Buddha Dhamma (sort of like atoms are building blocks according to science, but an atom is made of billions of suddhāṭṭhaka.)

• A suddhāṭṭhaka has eight components: pathavi, āpo, tejo, vāyo and vaṇṇa,  gandha, rasa, oja. 
• Anything in the material world is of all EIGHT components. However, the relative amounts of the eight components vary. For example, a stone is mostly pathavi, but it has all eight components; in a stone, pathavi dominates and all others are at low levels. For example, crocodiles eat mud and are able to extract nutrition from it. 
• The “attracting qualities” (sweetness, pleasing colors, etc)  in our food comes from the four components of vaṇṇa,  gandha, rasa, oja. Specifically, the sweetness in honey comes from rasa.

3. As the post “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka” explains, the eight components in a suddhāṭṭhaka have origins in the mind (specifically in javana cittas.) The following #9 is extracted from that post:

“9. The mind creates four types of gati (pathavi, āpo, tejo, and vāyo) due to avijjā or ignorance. We like to have possession of things made out of these units because we do not comprehend the “unfruitful nature” of such impermanent things.

• The craving for material things leads to four more gati due to taṇhā. Due to our tendency to think highly (“varnanā karanava” in Sinhala), another gati of “vaṇṇa” is created as different manifestations of the four primary bhūta of pathavi, āpo, tejo, and vāyo. Similarly, three more units of gandha, rasa, and oja are created due to taṇhā. Those correspond to our desire to be in touch with them and be “fooled” (gandha), keep them close (rassa), and re-generate them (oja).
• It will take too much space to explain these in detail, but I hope you get the basic idea. Further information at “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean.” See #5 there, clarifying the transition from “gati” to “bhuta” to “mahā bhūta” stages.”

4. Here is the most profound point: Our physical bodies are not the primary part of us. Instead, it is the “mental body” or the “manomaya kaya” (gandhabba). The main part of the manomaya kaya is a single suddhāṭṭhaka, made of the same eight components. That is the hadaya vatthu, where our thoughts (cittas) arise.

• However, unlike inert matter like a rock, the hadaya vatthu has all our “human gati” associated with it.
• That is why we are instinctively attracted to the “sweetness of honey,” “sight of a beautiful person,” etc.
• A pig’s hadaya vatthu has all its “pig gati” associated with it.
• P.S. The ” distorted saññā” is associated with the hadaya vatthu!
• This is a deep point, but it could be helpful. 

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dosakkhayo, hojan, Jittananto

For anyone who has not understood how the “sweetness of sugar” gets “embedded in sugar,” “kamaguna” is in sugar.

• However, one who understands the process knows that the “sweetness of sugar” is “embedded in sugar” due to a mental process. Only those who have similar mindsets taste sugar to be sweet (a lion does not taste sugar to be sweet.)
• Thus, one who understands the process will not attach to the “sweetness of sugar” even though they still taste “sugar to be sweet.” That is mainly because they also understand that such attachments lead to more suffering.
• Just that understanding, by itself, (janato) does not remove the craving for sweet things or more desirable sensory experiences. That is why one needs to contemplate that incessantly. That is why Satipatthana must be cultivated by those who understand the process to get to the “passato” stage. See “Jānato Passato” and Ājāniya – Critical Words to Remember.”
• These “kama sanna” are deeply engraved in our minds through countless lives. It is not easy to lose that “distorted sanna.” In the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)“, the Buddha said it could take seven days to seven years if cultivated properly.  

Of course.

• “Kamaguna” arises in a puthujjana‘s mind because they think the “sweetness of sugar” is real and not mind-made. 
• The tricky part is that no experiments within the world can deny that the “sweetness of sugar” is in sugar. Scientists will say a specific type of molecule causes the sweetness. Those molecules are made by kammic energy to provide that “sanna of sweetness” in humans!
• P.S. Even for an Ariya who has understood this process (janato), it will take time to overcome the attachment to that sanna (“passato“). That is what I explained above.
• This is also why the Buddha said his Dhamma would be difficult to comprehend. Even the “janitor” part may not be easy, but that is the “core” of the Buddha Dhamma. To become “sanditthiko” (i.e., how “san” arises), one needs to comprehend this process.

Take the time to read the comments and relevant posts.

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dosakkhayo