Suggestion about Sotapanna stage and kamma and meditation

Thanks for the videos. I just watched 14 to 22 minutes of the video that you suggested. That was enough for me.

I don’t like to be disrespectful. But I do not like to “beat around the bush” either.

He has no idea about what is meant by “sampajano”. He says it is all about arising and passing away of sensations. And one gets to Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Aranaht stages just by doing that!!?
– Exactly where in the Tipitaka such an explanation is given?

Sampajano means “sorting out “san” or defilements. I have disucssed it at “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“.

The verse “ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam“ is explained at “Satipatthāna Sutta – Structure“.
– I would like to hear your opinion on that post.

Finally, there was a long discussion on the Goenka technique in the discussion forum: “Goenka´s Vipassana“.
– You may want to read that. Several people have commented based on their experiences and I have given my opinion there in detail.

Jhanas are not necessary to attain magga phala. But cultivating jhanas is not bad unless one gets too attached to them. Jhanic experiences are the mental states of rupacavara and arupavacara brahmas. So, they are still within the rebirth process.
– When one cultivates jhanas, one can be born in those brahma realms. However, those brahmas, at the end of life there are reborn in lower realms, including the apayas.
– Jhanas and magga phala are two different things. While jhanas can help to get magga phala, they are not necessary: “Samādhi, Jhāna, Magga Phala – Introduction”

I would be happy to discuss if you can point out anything that I have written in those posts that is not consistent with the Tipitaka. I do understand that many people are impressed by those “jhanic experiences”. One thing I always point out is that Devadatta had cultivated all those jhanas, and even abhinna powers. But he ended up in the apayas.
– What is most important is to comprehend the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world, which includes those brahma realms.
– Has Goenka discussed anicca, dukkha, anatta? If so, I would appreciate it if you can point to a video where he has discussed them. I would like to listen and provide my feedback.

First of all I really respect your position on this and it has shown something completely new about understanding Sotapanna as a being that has understood that everything in the 31 realm is anicca, dukkha, anatta

It not new, it was always there but wrongs translations and wrong interpretation of Dhamma is out there mostly, people got attached and used to something then it’s hard for them to realize the mistake and harm done to Dhamma.

Some call this hard stage “dark night of the soul” or “fear/disgust/suffering nanas” – beacuse some people have a lot of apaya kamma and this process of eradicating this kamma is very unpleasant for some.

This is totally wrong, nothing like that happens in Dhamma and this is what is called “adhamma”. New age stuff that people are fascinated by it. One will Nibbana is not related to this world so those experiences are signs of wrong practice and view.

It is based on my personal experience and that of my friends. What is interesting, I’ve started my process of eradication of apaya sankharas even when I didn’t established samma ditthi, just did proper anariya jhanas. My friend did the same.

Because you believed someone that this is “burning off apaya sankharas” (which is not) it does not mean that it actually the thing with right view one will know there is no “burning off” apaya sankharas – this is what hinduism believes. In real Dhamma there is no such thing, one can still have residue for apaya but will grab apaya bhava even after being serial killer (Angulimala).

Peoples personal feeling is what makes Dhamma being destroyed by time because they can not overcome them and just understand Tipitaka as it is so they do not apply themselves to the Tipitaka but Tipitaka to themselves that’s why Buddha Dhamma gets ruined over time. It’s better to understand it quickly or one can create very bad kamma for himself for making schism in Sangha.

We had sensations of re-living past-lives traumatic experiences (like murder, being in a war etc.) and we felt utter relief after re-living of sensation in jhanic state ended.

This is not jhana but past-life regeression based on life. Jhana are definited experiences and one can not think that it was jhana or not because there are factors explained which one need to understand to recognize if it was jhana or not. You may experience samadhi and there is a lot of them, even if you read biographies of forest monks (which they do not practice Dhamma in the right view) they had experiences like that and refuted them not even calling them jhanas etc.

I think that Buddha stated that jhanas are one of imponderables. So all this distinction of 4 jhanas and explaining them is just a model and every teacher understands them differently. Truty is, there is INFINITE amounts of jhanic states (one of imponderables).
Stating that fourth jhana is “light” isn’t really the case. For example for Ajahn Brahm, all 4 jhanas are light jhanas, while for some others (like Goenka), all four jhanas are not-light.

That is wrong understanding and those people who you name have wrongs views about Dhamma and practice. Jhanas are not different from each other, in 4th jhana there is always light – if not then this not 4th jhana. Imagine getting on drugs and one believes that attained jhana – you would probably believe it as one need to have proper wisdom to what is what. Below jhana one can get into samadhi and experience quasi-jhana like experiences. I did that plenty before real Dhamma, I had so many experiences that I thought it was jhana related but non of them was so this is the same case. One learning what is real one learns what is fake and not real.

I think stream entry is more and harder than you describe, more than samma ditthi but rather actual eradication through jhana practice all kamma beeja relating to apayas and then experiencing at least once magga phala of sotapanna (nibbanic bliss)

“What I think” is the crown of ignorance, if what we think was right we would not need Buddha at the first place. Stream entry is not harder or easier, everything is based on cause and effect, whatever hard/easy thing one have in the mind is related to ignorance. What you think is against Tipitaka, finding explanations to ones own delusions in Tipitaka it’s easy to do, finding the way it is – it’s not, that why one need Ariya at the first place to learn real Dhamma.

’m actually writing my P.hD. mostly about jhanas in theravada buddhist and I tell you, this subject is VAST and really, everyone has different version of it

This is what wrong with the “modern” interpretation of Dhamma, you post is also great example what wrong with that also – let it be a lesson for other and hope you will attain Nibbana the way it is possible rather then take on impossible roads that leads into lower realm in the future.

One can not remove kamma beeja – this is hinduism, Buddha clearly said that we can not burn off any kamma and it will never lead to Nibbana.

Come to the light side!! but if it’s too much for you then anyway wish you best on the Path :)

Hello Invo,
I hope I was not too blunt. But sometimes, that helps to get the point across. I am glad that it did not turn you off completely. Sometimes that happens too. So, it is a gamble.

You wrote: “I just wanted to share for consideration the idea of stream entry as fruit of eradication of kamma beeja related to apayas through samadhi and brahma-viharas practice.”

This idea of “erasing bad kamma” is non-existent in Buddha Dhamma. It could be a concept from Hinduism. Does Ajahn Brahm teach that?

For example, Angulimala killed 999 people. But he was able to attain Arahanthood in a couple of weeks. He did that not by “erasing his bad kamma”, but by cultivating wisdom (panna).
– When one gets to Samma Ditthi, one will not “upadana” (or willingly grasp or embrace”) any future bhava compatible with a defiled mind.
– – One needs to understand Paticca Samuppada to really grasp that concept.

To put it in a different way, there are TWO important outcomes of getting to Samma Ditthi.
– FIRST is that one would not generate new bad kamma starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara”. But that does not erase any existing bad kamma.
– The SECOND is what I mentioned above. One would stop generating new bad births (especially in the apayas), by stopping the steps, “tanha paccaya upadana”, “upadana paccaya bhava”, and “bhava paccaya jati”.
– That is why the removal of avijja and tanha go together. They are irradicated in four steps: Sotapanna, SAKADAGAMI, Anagami, Arahant.
– Therefore, it is not “eradication of kamma beeja”, but “eradication of avijja and tanha, which leads to various stages of Nibbana.

You wrote: “Btw. how long do you both practice these techniques?
Perhaps the “dark night” you’re criticizing has just not come yet? Or perhaps it does not come when practicing properly ;)”

My way of practicing is vipassana. But it is not Goenka’s type of vipassana. I have discussed it in the Meditation section.
– You are correct in saying that such “dark nights” are not experienced if one practices the correct way. I have not had even bad dreams for many years.
– Practicing Buddha Dhamma is not just formal mediation. It involves many things, starting with a moral life. I spend most of the day just contemplating Dhamma concepts. Writing posts for the website helps me too since it forces me to think deeply and make sure what I write is not in contradiction to the Tipitaka. Answering forum questions do the same thing.
– “Ragakkhayo Nibbanam, Dosakkhayo Nibbanam, Mohakkhayo Nibbanam”. One WILL experience the “cooling down effect” of Nibbana as one gets rid of greed, anger, and ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths) by cultivating wisdom (panna). That means cultivating Samma Ditthi. That means getting rid of wrong views such as “past kamma beeja can be irradicated”. One just makes them “ineffective”.
– Learning and contemplating on the Four Noble Truths (which involve Tilakkhana and Paticca Samuppada) is the key. One needs to understand the true nature of this world of 31 realms.

Let me continue a little, hope you do not mind that I will be direct as I have a good intention for it – not to bash you anything but we need to be clear on everything :)

I learn from a lot of teachers, not just tipitaka, because I’m not competent enough to make my own translations so I have to get help from teachers like you.

Teacher must attain Nibbana already. Tricky situation is that you can not know it, one need to have some roots or be affected by javana power of teacher to realize what is real when you encounter it. It’s just a small drop in the ocean why it’s so rare to be even born in earth like that and now consider encountering the real Dhamma in fake “buddhism” spread by hinduistic, new age or just watered down/wrongly translated version of it. We have everything as granted so one may feel like other traditions are ‘right’ to etc. while yoga or other aspects of spiritual traditions can have a positive impact on health but they can never lead to Nibbana.

during my dreams I had very severe nightmares that were related to my past-lives traumas.

How do you know those are past lives? Can you confirm that? From what I understand we can only see past lives in 4th jhanas and not all people can do that, anyway. If you can confirm places, things that happen googling them or looking up for them then it will be all right but I highly doubt it they are related to past lives.

I don’t think that everything which is hinduistic must be wrong or useless. I consider myself buddhist, but I also respect wisdom of different traditions.

As explained above, one can not consider himself “buddhist” – you false claiming. It’s like claiming that one is a mathematician but do not know how to count, subtract or add numbers. You are interested in “buddhism” but one becomes part of Sangha only when there are Ariyas – that is when one starting to become “buddhist”. Other tradition as explained are not useless, same as medicine or physics but the problem with them they can not cure everything neither then can explain everything so after attainment of Nibbana one understand what is wrong with them and limitations of their views/practices. If you aim is to attain Nibbana – yes they are useless in that, the rest is questionable and depends on many factors.

Perhaps the “dark night” you’re criticising has just not come yet? Or perhaps it does not come when practicing properly ;)

It does not come when one practice properly.

I hope you’re right :) But I really can’t be sure yet. It would be great if path could be without eradication of kamma beeja. But I can’t dismiss that possibility entirely

Yes you can, just start making sense out of things rather than blindly taking things to your liking/disliking and you will see that those statements are making no sense but for it one need to attain Sotapanna already to be on that stage of insight (Dhamma eye). Therefore Buddha explained 99% of suffering is gone after Sotapanna and having the right views because one never be deluded again by nothing, other tradition and religion, is like a person who constantly fall trap into MLM and pyramid schemes, you have some ideas about the future, hope and ignorance involved (nicca, atta, sukha) and because of that you got played by other religions, a teacher on that hope but there is no hope unless you understand and practice real Dhamma. Everything then Buddha Dhamma is asubha, only Dhamma is subha this will go over your head anyway and it will be understood if you attain Sotapanna stage, it will be clear.

About the rest of things I will not comment, practice real Dhamma and the rest will clarify itself if you are Tihetuka, if not just try to be the morally and insightful then there is big chance you will be born again as such.

Invo wrote: “Goenkaji teaches that eradication of kamma beeja as essential part of the practice and he puts great emphasis upon that.”

If anyone can give me a reference from the Tipitaka that Arahanthood can be attained by eradication of kamma beeja, I would appreciate it. As far as I know, there is no such statement, or even implication, in the Tipitaka. Arahanthood is attained by the removal of greed, anger, and ignorance from one’s mind. When one does that any existing kamma beeja will become non-effective.
– We need to highlight such false claims. They lead to the spreading of bad impressions about Buddha Dhamma, and can set many people back on their progress on the Path.

Invo wrote: “I understand anicca, dukkha, anatta of 31 completely. I believe my samma ditthi is complete and EXPERIENCED.”

– I am glad to hear that. Your description above that sounds very good.

– In your earlier post you mentioned that you are writing your Ph.D. thesis on Jhanas. You may find some information on Tipitaka references at “Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala” and “Power of the Human Mind“

Invo had stated: “As to Ajahn Brahm, he doesn’t teach “eradication of kamma beeja”. Ajahn Brahm teaches more like you, goodness (metta & sila),..”

When I came across a set of discourses by Ajahn Brahm recently, I spent some time and listened to a few. The set of discourses are here:
“Word of the Buddha (Full Series – parts 1 to 12) | 2016 to 2019”

Yes. I recommend listening to this set. These are long discourses. One could take time and listen over a period of time.

Cubibobi (Lang) has not been able to post a comment. He emailed me the following comment. Thus there are still some issues with posting.

Hi all,

I just saw this forum which mentions two teachers I used to follow closely, so I’d like to share a few experiences.

With S. N. Goenka (known to us as Goenkaji), I took a few 10-day meditation courses and one 7-day course that taught the Satipatthana Sutta. In the forum about Goenka’s vipassana, I did my best to describe a 10-day course:

Goenka’s Vipassana

I’m not now practicing that way, but hearing a phrase like “burning/eradicating old sankharas� brings back memory, some of which unpleasant.

I suppose many who went through the courses can recall times of sitting through difficulties in the mind (from past sankharas coming up, manifesting as sensations on the body), mustering mental strength to get through emotional “storms”, because this was how purification took place, like letting pus out of a wound. I suppose this is what Invo meant by �dark night of the soul�.

I recall wondering at times: “How do we eradicate past sankharas since they are infinite, given that samsara has no beginning?”

With Ajahn Brahm, I had a great time listening to his numerous talks on YouTube: a gentle, laid-back, humorous teacher. His talks were gems, but a few of them gave me some discouragement, where he emphasized that jhana was prerequisite to liberation.

He also made it clear in one of his books:

Mindfulness, Bliss, And Beyond

On page 127, he made this point very clearly. The first paragraph on that page read:

“In the original Buddhist scriptures there is only one word for
�meditation� and that is jhana. According to the fully enlightened
Ven. Ananda in the Gopaka-Moggallana Sutta (MN 108,27) the only
kind of meditation that the Buddha recommended was jhana.Thus jhana
designates Buddhist meditation proper, where the meditator�s mind is
stilled of all thought, secluded from all five-sense activity, and is radiant
with otherworldly bliss. Put bluntly, if it isn�t jhana then it isn�t true
Buddhist meditation! Perhaps this is why the culminating factor of the
Buddha�s noble eightfold path, the one that defines right meditation, is
nothing less than the four jhanas.”

I must admit I felt a bit discouraged since I had a “nagging feeling” that I would not get into jhana in this lifetime.

I continued searching and learning and “stumbled” into puredhamma.net (or perhaps when a student is desperate the teacher appears?)

It was eye-opening, and I felt great joy in learning true meanings of Pali words, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, and the keyword “san”. Here, there is no getting “through mental storms” to get to the “beyond”; reading, and oftentimes rereading, a post, and contemplating it afterwards bring only joy, and more importantly, a kind of faith that sotapanna magga phala is possible.

I hope those with similar past experiences as mine find something beneficial here.

Best

P.S. Writing to here, I recall another book in the style of Goenka’s vipassana:

The Quiet Mind
https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Quiet-Mind.pdf

As you know, Goenkaji supposely taught vipassana in the style of Sayagi U Ba Khin. Sayagi U Ba Khin had other students besides SN Goenka, one of whom was John Coleman, the author of this book, which describes his spiritual search.

In chapter 17 of the book, he described his enlightenment experience. On page 171-172 he described the “wild dance of electrons” throughout his hand, how he experienced the “atomic theories” in his own body. Also on page 172, he alluded to the burning of old kammas through this intense experience.

In Goenka’s method, there’s mentioning of the stage of bhanga, where one experiences the dissolution throughout the physical body through rapidly changing sensations, and I figured that John Coleman was describing this stage, or even beyond.

Again, similar to reading Ajahn Brahm, I felt somewhat discouraged while reading this, due to the “nagging feeling” that I would not experience this stage.

I agree with Lang (and I have stated this many times with Tipitaka references) that jhana are not necessary to attain magga phala.

The two discourses of Ajahn Brahm that I listened to did not mention jhana. So, I was unaware of his position on that.
– I also did not agree fully with a few of the things mentioned in the two discourses that I listened to.
– However, he was better than many others. Some, in particular, do not associate Nibbana with ending the rebirth process. Ajahn Brahm emphasized this important point. He detailed the kind of suffering that one goes through in the rebirth process, and why one must end the rebirth process to end samsaric suffering.

We can get something out of discourses by some.
– However, it is completely useless to listen to some others.
– I try to listen to different bhikkhus (and laypeople) when I have time, just to get an idea of what is out there. Most of them, I don’t need to listen to more than once to realize that it is a waste of time.
– However, I think one may be able to get some insights by listening to discourses by a selected number of bhikkus/laypeople.
– It would be nice to get the opinions of others who have listened to Ajahn Brahm. We have discussed the teachings of Goenka in detail in the link that Lang provided above.

“According to the fully enlightened Ven. Ananda in the Gopaka-Moggallana Sutta (MN 108,27) the only kind of meditation that the Buddha recommended was jhana.Thus jhana designates Buddhist meditation proper, where the meditators mind is stilled of all thought, secluded from all five-sense activity, and is radiant with otherworldly bliss. Put bluntly, if it isnt jhana then it isnt true Buddhist meditation!” quote from apparantly Ajahn Brahms.

The Pali sutta’s talks about jhana as a happily abiding here and now. One has to apply insight-mediation while in jhana and while coming out of jhana. (MN52, AN11.16, MN64).
Only when applying insightmeditation during jhana or while coming out of jhana, the asava’s can end. But if one seeks gratification in jhana, that is considered to be bhava asava.
(Bodhi, MN, note 37).

True meditation…i belief…can uproot the asava’s and lead to samma vimutti. Jhana on it’s own cannot. But if one combines jhana with insightmeditation it seems like jhana can be a base for the destruction of the asava’s.

Cubibobi and Sybe07: “He also made it clear in one of his books:

Mindfulness, Bliss, And Beyond

On page 127, he made this point very clearly. The first paragraph on that page read:

“In the original Buddhist scriptures there is only one word for
�meditation� and that is jhana. According to the fully enlightened
Ven. Ananda in the Gopaka-Moggallana Sutta (MN 108,27) the only
kind of meditation that the Buddha recommended was jhana..”

I have highlighted what is wrong with the statement.

The Buddha approved Ariya jhana and rejected anariya jhana.
– Ariya jhana can be attained ONLY (but not all) those who have attained magga phala.
– Those who “enjoy” anariya jhana may have the wrong perception that those states are something to do with magga phala. As I have pointed out, jhanic states are the mental states in brahma realms. Those brahmas (unless they have magga phala) can be reborn in the apayas.

I took a look at the Gopaka­mog­gallā­na Sutta (MN 108).
– It says, “Na ca kho, brāhmaṇa, so bhagavā sabbaṃ jhānaṃ vaṇṇesi, napi so bhagavā sabbaṃ jhānaṃ na vaṇṇesīti.”
– That means, “The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of jhana, nor did he condemn every type of jhana”.

Then it is explained what kind of jhana the Buddha approved and praised.
– As I keep saying, we need to be very careful with this kind of translations.