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I liked your responses Taryal!
The only possible way to make such conversations fruitful is only if the opposite party is not egoistic and biased to their preconceived thoughts.
If that person would have been open minded and truly in search of the truth, he would have listened to you and also tried to do some research by himself. So practically nothing it is that we can do in such a matter.
Debating them is also useless because of the above mentioned things and they’ll always say that “This reasearch is fraud, etc.” without looking into it open mindedly and logically.
Regarding that person’s question
“(annoyed look) Buddha wAs jUst a hUmAn, not God. He did not provide everything. He said this life itself is suffering and encouraged celibacy. Whether you sleep with 9 women or with 1, what is the difference?”
A normal human will always see ultimate bliss in sleeping with many many girls. There’s a celebrity (I forgot his name, I will try to find it) who is a sex addict and has sex 9 times a day, with many girls, he also uses certain medications to recover much faster and enjoy again and again . A normal man may consider this as EVERYTHING, but we all now here realise that it’s such a pitiful life he lives in .
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He won’t have Kama raga but still have Rupa raga though.
I got it now,Kama raga is for cravings of pleasure
And Rupa raga only to see and hear?
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So only the three close contact( touch ,taste and smell) sensory cravings are to be eradicated or suppressed.
The other three ( sight, sound and thoughts) are used to access the above three.
If the close contact ones are eradicated or suppressed enough, we attain the Rupa jhana.
And if the other two- sight and sound, are eradicated or suppressed enough, we attain the Arupa jhana.
So a person, having attained the Rupa jhana, would he have cravings to see beautiful sights and to hear melodious sounds?
Many religious people say that “what the Buddha said makes sense, but he still is a human.”
I mean what type of critical thinking is that? To be very honest I never knew that people can be this dumb ( no offence by the way, I only feel pity for these people)
When I first encountered this Dhamma, I wanted to spread it to everyone.
I thought that this is so easy to understand. But I had to endure some really lethal bullets of ignorance and ego.
I sent some dhamma videos to my friend, she didn’t even open the link and said that “I am too busy right now, but I will definitely watch this later”. That day has never come.
So even though it’s possible that people may understand the Dhamma, they aren’t able to come across it!
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There is my gym mate who does these things, he goes to the prostitutes.
Initially he was telling me that it’s so good and so beautiful girls are there.
But later I heard him talking to someone about how even this no longer giving the same pleasure.
He has realised a bit that it’s so much stress to go there and pay only for a few minutes of pleasure.
So all these things are Anicca. One would realise that if one is wise enough.
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Let’s take an example of a any object like a mobile phone.
Take your phone and touch it .
If you touch the screen ,then it’s not the “phone” ,it’s the screen.
If you touch the back, you didn’t touch the “phone”.
Same with a Car. You can touch it’s individual parts but can never touch a “car”.
Now two questions arise
Is there a car? (As we can’t touch the “car”)
Is there no car? ( A car is there , we can see that!)
So what’s exactly the reality?
Both these questions are wrong, and the right question is to ask , Why do we feel that there is a car.
All the individual parts came together, and we create a perception of what a car looks like, and if both these match, we feel that the object is a car.
If it is cut in half, we feel that the car is cut in half, but in reality only the arrangement has been changed
This was the question asked to the Buddha (I don’t know the sutta).
Both these sayings that “Is there a self?” Or “Is there no self” or “IS there neither self nor no self?” Or “Is there either self or no self?” Are wrong questions.
The correct question should be,why do we feel that there is a Self?
Thats the Perception part. As I mentioned earlier,the mind arises only when the conditions are met.
For example, clap your hands ,that sound is not in the clapping but is generated in the mind. What that clapping generated was just vibrations of certain frequency.
The longer you clap ,the longer you hear that sound, that is sound consciousness arises, which means a citta arises to experience that only if the conditions are met.
Since the mind is also based on Causality, this is why we can attain Nibbana! We can remove all the causes that give rise to a future mind.
That is the Vinnana , we need to tackle the Kamma Vinnana. If the mind doesn’t generate Kamma Vinnana, it won’t fabricate a future mind, as the cause is no longer present.
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An Arahant only responds to the environment.
For example, hunger then eat food, thirst then drink water, and so on.
If a naked woman in front, no response,etc.
All the actions an Arahant does are kammically neutral and done by the Arahant’s Gati. That individual neutral gati is responsible for two Arahants to react in their individual ways with the Environment.
Thats why not even two Arahants behave in the same manner. One example of a young Arahant who used to jump over puddles of water.
I think what Pathfinder says is logical and makes sense, but it’s extremely complex! Note that billions of citta arise in a second and each one is completely different from the other! Completely unique.
We all are a Process! The mind is a process! RVSSV
With Avijja built in, we tend to react in ignorant ways with the Environment.
The most eligible person to answer such a question would be an Arahant, but let’s see what others have to say 🙏
So in this sense we can say that everything is Causality, even the mind ( consciousness) arises when the causes and conditions are present.
For example Cakkunca Paticca Rupecca Uppajati Cakku Vinnanam.
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The point is that, I too was very much inspired by the Dhamma and wanted to spread it to many people. Apart from my parents, no one listened!
Some listened but tried to find mistakes in the Dhamma, some said “we will do it later, I am busy currently”, some started mocking and some generated hate. Then I was very much broken by such things.
Then I realised, if someone has the merits, he will find the true Dhamma just like we all have.
Yes we can teach them but only if we are at a very good level, otherwise frustration and agitation may start to ignite during such a debate and we may wrongly portray the Dhamma. Then the people will more and more mock the dhamma. As Christian said, people have a high and weird expectations of someone preaching spirituality. So it will become counterproductive.
The Buddha knows who can understand the Dhamma so that’s why it is easier for him. But unfortunately we can’t do that.
Thats why we should focus on ourselves first and if someone in the way shows some keen interest or asks you about these things , then you can tell him. That too should be done without any expectation of him suddenly following the Buddha Dhamma.
Kamma Vipaka is based on cause, condition and effect. This is the Principle of Causality.
If the causes are there, but the required conditions are not present, the effect won’t manifest. Just like a mango seed has the ability to give rise to a mango tree. But it won’t happen if the conditions are not right, like , watering of the seed, availability of sunlight, good soil, etc.
Same is with the kamma Vipaka. An angami brahma may have accumulated many bad kamma in the past. But the condition for their fruition is permanently eradicated.
För example he may have killed many people in the past. But due to such a light body he cannot be killed. And many more.
If one attains Parinibbana, all the kamma bija become ineffective.
What the Buddha said would have been in accordance with the Causality part as mentioned earlier. Untill and unless, the magga phala is attained, one is bound to suffer the consequences as the conditions may come some day.
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In the absolute truth , there is no Happiness. Only Suffering and No Suffering. That “No Suffering” part is the true happiness which is the 0 on the graph. That is the unshakable happiness.
I understand people are interested in such highs and lows. Then we can’t actually do anything. The only thing is that they have not realised the value of mental peace, that’s why they indulge in those things . They then suffer from all types of mental stresses, anger, fear, sorrow, grief,etc. due to such highs and lows. So if they all want that, let them have that.
Note that Buddha Dhamma is only for the wise!
Puthujjanas, even though they might see the drawbacks of such actions,still indulge in those as they don’t know any alternative way of true happiness. They have not yet realised the Peace and Calmness that comes from staying away from such actions is of great value. That is unconditional happiness.
So they continue to indulge in such things. The fact is that Even a Sakadagami indulges in sensuality. He has realised dhamma to a great extent and yet his mind is attached to such mind made pleasures(at a lower level). So what about puthujjanas? They will continue to do that, they lack wisdom in this regard.
The only way to feel pleasure (here, mental) , is to first vex for that or rather be in a state of depression/ stress . Now try to get relief out of that stress. You will feel pleasure.
So this could have been a more “lay level” point that you could have made.
Their mind is deliberately creating/ accumulating all that stress to feel relief later and to experience pleasure! This is a very very crucial point to understand! I hope I am able to express the gravity of this issue.
If their dog dies, they will get stressed and then they will recall all those memories to get relief from it, and then feel pleasure. What a pitiful life!
Just like an Olympic winner has earned a Gold medal from years of intense effort, he will feel great happiness upon achieving this success. But what next? Is that happiness forever? Usain Bolt retired at a much younger age only because he felt no competition(no vexation/wanting). He couldn’t really feel the happiness when he used to feel in his early career, as there was a goal in the mind ( wanting/vexation) . And once it was achieved pleasure was felt, and then nothing else.
I wonder why didn’t Buddha cure himself of all the diseases using Abhinna Powers? Buddha has advised not to suffer a bit, and even if a bodily ailment is there, it should be treated asap. So Buddha could have treated them instantly.
The missing part could be that they don’t know how to stop wanting of these worldly things.
They may have realised that sensuality is tormenting and can lead one to commit apayagami actions. But they still don’t know how to overcome its wanting. They suppress such cravings either by fear or by anariya jhana.
If someone doesn’t commit apayagami actions because it will lead him to suffer in future. That person is Not a Sotappana yet. He is just afraid of the consequences. A Sotappana does not want to commit any apayagami actions (except in extreme cases). The Sotappana doesn’t have such a thought towards anyone. As he has realised that to be committing apayagami actions, one must see value in the Sansara.
People rape for sensual pleasure or in ego
People murder in rage or to possess someone’s wife, wealth, etc.
People steal because of value in objects.
People lie, do sexual misbehavior,etc.
All because they still feel intense value in such things.
A Sotappana has realised the Anicca nature of such things. That’s the difference.
That Yogi ,even though has seen the dangers of apayagami actions, doesn’t know the method to Permanently eradicate such desires. He is just afraid. He has seen sensuality is tormenting, but doesn’t know how to Permanently stop it’s cravings. That Yogi himself has seen all this by Suppressing Kama Raga! How would he ever realise to eradicate it permanently?
What he sees is just the following
Do good deeds ,get good results
Don’t do bad deeds, don’t get bad results
They just don’t know how to stop committing these bad deeds automatically and permanently.
