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Lal:
– I didn’t said that there is an incongruence in the Tipitaka.
– I’m saying that there is an incongruence in the translation of your post, your matching with actual scientific theories, and the law of kamma
– This is important: the tipitaka is not our bible. It’s just a text that has to be taken as such. It has to be tested by personal experience. I do not believe in the Tipitaka, I have faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.In the lineage that I practice (Goenka), the teachers (ancestors) of that lineage talk about contraction and expansion of the whole universe. This doesn’t mean that I blindly believe in what they said, but the question comes (a question that you didn’t refute yet): if there is more planets that host lifeforms, more galaxies, more “clusters”, more whatever names we wanna place for a physical realm… why should a being go up with the destruction of his cluster when there are innumerable more places around the universe in which the tendencies can take place?
Please answer this.Furthermore, if beings go up with the destruction of the material realms, the inexistence of this last ones will have to be a requisite. The only possible instance in which this event could happen is in the absolute contraction of the whole Universe when there is no physical realm available anywhere.
I can’t make the link between a time reference and the law of kamma. What I mean is that I absolutely agree that the destruction of anything in the universe is progressive, not from one moment to the other. But I can’t see why this will be a refutation to the possibility of any mind flow to continue its tendencies in another planet, another cluster, or whatever place is available at the moment of birth.
The entire universe is the field that contains nama and rupa, and as such nama can and will appear anywhere. Accumulated tendencies act like a strong magnet that will push the mind towards the corresponding/compatible realm of existence. The only exception is when this realm is not available. Only then the complexity of the law of kamma will push the being to another realm, lower or higher.
If we follow this logically and not purely and solely based on a 2300 years text (that we are not 100% sure if is authentic and not modified) + the fact that there are as many translations as traditions, the only moment in which a being will be “forcibly” reborn in a higher realm is in the contraction of the entire universe, that is when there is No More Realms in which rupa is stabilized enough to take form.Hi!
I might be wrong but I think that a mistake was made while explaining the transition of beings from the lower realms to the Brahma realms on the destruction of the planet.
I would like to remember that the universe is something like infinite (or very big at least). There are innumerable clusters of 10.000 systems in which each and every system is passing through their own cycle. Considering this, beings that belong to any real, with the exception of those with subtle/non material bodies, will be reborn in another cluster in correspondence with their kamma at the time of the destruction of their planet.
This beings will only be “forcibly” reborn in the Brahmas realms with the Contraction of the entire universe, when there is no other place where their accumulated kamma can express its effects.Hello Tien,
Yes, I mean Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. You can choose the translation that appeals more to you, that’s not the point. I don’t wanna be rude but it will be very helpful to focus on the general idea beyond the exposition of someone else, not in the specific words. They can be interpreted in different ways by each an everyone of us.
It’s very likely that when I used the word “bird” I imagine a different species than you. You know what I mean?Furthermore my english is not the best so I have to apologize for that.
The type of Nirodha is “Phalasamapatti”. I misunderstood the use of the word “Nirodha”. I willed to use it as “cessation”. Anyway, the important issue here is the following:
The path to Sotappana- The meditator undertakes the practice of morality, specifically guarding the mind from unwholesomeness (sīlavisuddhi)
- Guarding the mind, the meditator cultivates focus, gaining clarity of mind based on the objects of experience (cittavisuddhi)
- Having a clear mind, the meditator cultivates an understanding of the nature of experience as composed of impersonal physical and mental constituents (diṭṭhivisuddhi)
- Observing the physical and mental phenomena, the meditator cultivates an understanding of the causal interactions between the physical and mental phenomena (kaṅkhāvitaraṇavisuddhi)
- Through the understanding of positive and negative causal relationships, the meditator cultivates an understanding of what is an what is not the path (maggāmaggañāṅadassanavisuddhi)
- Through an understanding of the path, the meditator cultivates the right path (paṭipadāñāṅadassanavisuddi)
- Through cultivating the right path, one attains knowledge and vision of the noble path and fruition (ñāṅadassanavisuddhi)
Sotāpanna occurs upon attainment of the seventh stage. The right path (#6) is the gradual understanding that all formations are impermanent, suffering, and non-self. Once this realization becomes all-encompassing, the meditator attains an absolute certainty of one or another of the three characteristics and this leads to a release based either on knowledge of signlessness (based on impermanence – that there is no telling what will happen in advance), desirelessness (based on suffering – that there is no benefit to clinging to any formation), or emptiness (based on non-self – that all formations are void of self and there is no relationship of ownership or control in regards to all formations).
This release leads to an experience of cessation, where there is no arising of sense experience (including mental sense experience). This is the realization of nibbāna, and this is what leads to the eradication of the first three fetters.
1- Wrong view is eradicated because one can never believe that anything could be permanent, satisfying or controllable, having seen them all cease without remainder.
2- Attachment to wrong practice is eradicated because one can never be confused about the practice that leads to nibbāna after seeing nibbāna for oneself.
3- Doubt about the Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha can never arise, because one knows what the Buddha taught to be true with complete certainty, and the results that one attains having followed said teachings.
From my point of view is undeniable that we have to experience Nibbana in order to reach a “secure standpoint”. This is our own validation that the teachings are real. We dispel every little spark of doubt when we See Nibbana, not before.
Is it reasonable? When we see smoke that smells like something burning we can be almost sure that there is a fire somewhere, but it is not until we actually see it that we can affirm by our own experience that is true.
The Sotappana is an Ariyan because he attained one of the Supramundane paths, and the only reality that classifies as “supramundane” is Nibbana.Stream-entry is by no means an easy task. It requieres year of practice, years of practical investigation of reality. With this I don’t pretend to give a pessimist vision about the journey, but it is important to be realistic to. When I read about this stuff I usually prefer to keep in mind that this is the ultimate goal of all us so it will requiere the most high standar of achivement possible, it won’t be easy to do. Aeons of Craving and Ignorance are in our backs, incalculable periods of contraction and expansion of the entire Universe.
In fact, it’s Amazing that such a thing as entering the path leading to liberation can be achieved in one life. (Taking into consideration that we have to pass through kindergarten over and over again) Don’t you think?Hello everyone!
I would like to add something in order to throw a bit of “light” into this theme of Enlightenment, specifically in the first stage of Sotapana (stream entry).
The attainment of this stage is marked by the first sight/experience of the uncondition element (Nibbāna). It is not a “random momentary trascendental realization of our conditions and role in the cosmos” but something very technical. Like the Physical world that has very precisely mathematical laws, the Reality of Mind possesses the same characteristics. It can be precisely described, and the path to liberation is a very technical one indeed (although subject to some little variations depending on the individual conditions).
In order to enter the Stream one MUST experience Nibbana, going beyond mind and matter and entering in the state of Nirodha where all the senses (including the mind) stop working. Maybe this last only a second (could be much more) but is enough potent to completely change the mind of the meditator.
This experience is equally speaking to the Dispelling of All doubts about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha because now the person knows by DIRECT EXPERIENCE that what the buddha tought is true (crucial point) and can never follow another spiritual master. Until that moment faith played a very important roll that now is no more necessary. The meditator is his own teacher. He/she knows perfectly which is the path and which is not. He/she understands that no rite or ritual neither stict adhesion to moral discipline can help him towards the final goal. Only the intensive practise of meditation can do it. No more intellectual games, no more deception.May all have the chance to experience such a blissful state in this very life.
May all beings be happy, be peaceful, be liberatedTobias, thank you for your contribution
I would like to remind that the 10 day course is an introduction to the method and to the path. There is a discourse by Goenka at the end of each day. He definetly talks about law of kamma (as sankharas), dependent origination, rebirth (a bit), the path and fuitions. Because is a polemical theme to talk with western minded people, he only mentioned in brief the 31 planes of existance.
As you continue with the other courses, short ones, satipatthana sutta, 20 days, 30 days, 45 days, 60 days… the discourses change and get deeper into the Abhidhamma world.“2 weeks after the course my mind was back to “normal distraction” although I meditated every evening. My wife and a friend experienced the same “fall back”. The satara iddhipada were not at work.”
That is going to happend with every method available. It is not possible to keep the same state of mind that you have in a meditation centre, with an ideal atmosphere, in complete silence, keeping all your precepts intact (very easy to break the “false speach” one)“When attention is moved in a sweeping manner from one part of the body to the next, can the mind really stay on one particular spot, on one particular sensation long enough to observe its arising, unexpected change and passing away? It seems to me that attention would be scattered in this way, and there would be no opportunity to observe a particular sensation continuously, before moving on to observe yet another sensation.”
Sensations arise and disappear at a high frequency rate. With our poor levels of attention, we can only detect great changes, but in spite of that they are still there, you can feel the change despite the few seconds you spent observing before going to the next sensation. Once you become more and more concentrated, the “same” feelings begin to disarm and you can detect more textures inside them. That procedure continues to unfold over and over again, until it is supposed that the meditator reach the state of bhanga dissolution, an important point in the progress of insight called “Visuddhiñana-katha”:
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5. Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga-ñana)
6. Awareness of Fearfulness (bhayatupatthana-ñana)
7. Knowledge of Misery (adinava-ñana)
8. Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida-ñana)
9. Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitu-kamyata-ñana)
10. Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankhanupassana-ñana)
11. Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations (sankhar’upekkha-ñana)
12. Insight Leading to emergence (vutthanagamini-vipassana-ñana)
13. Knowledge of Adaptation (anuloma-ñana)
14. Maturity Knowledge (gotrabhu-ñana)
15. Path Knowledge (magga-ñana)
16. Fruition Knowledge (phala-ñana)
17. Knowledge of Reviewing (paccavekkhana-ñana)
18. Attainment of Fruition (phalasamapatti)
19. The Higher Paths and FruitionsFirewns, thank you for participate in this discussion :)
I would like to point out that we do not have to “stay” in the words, we have to go deeper into the meaning of what the author mean to be with those word.
“egolessness”, “not-self”, “non-self”, etc… If we carefully examine what every author want to explain with those words they all mean the same, the ausence of a permanent sustance that keep intact whithin time and space.
With every author I refer to the ones that we are mentioning, Theravada tradition ones.nice that we are understanding each other :D
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What is meant by anicca per Goenka technique? Impermanence?
He refers to the unsatisfactoriness resulting of the incessant search of any gratification in things that have such a volatile existence. The futility of all compound things. He also point out how we create suffering wanting what we don’t have or experience and rejecting what we have/experience. -
How does a “body scan” leads to the realization of anicca nature?
While you do the scan over an over again you gain the experience of change, observing the araising and passing away of sensations; the wide variety of sensations, how they all have the same characteristics.
I perfectly understand what you say, but I never mentioned Breath meditation as the tool for liberation. That is only one of the three legs of the tripod: Sila, Samadhi, Panna.
“sukha vedana” are good or pleasurable body sensations. That is an unusual feeling. Most of the time your body is full of gross and heavy vedanas.
Goenka’s body scan technique is about experiencing anicca with the body sensations (coming from all angles mentioned before), with the consequence realization of dukha and anatta; Complete Tilakkhana.I would like to understand why you keep asociating along the comments that breath meditation is the Goeka’s technique.
I’m not a defender of this method, that’s why I’m here. Your explanations about the suttas and the abhidhamma are very consistent. I only want to get a better understanding of meditation
In your more descripting comment you write the following:
“1 Lang said: “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”, translated as “Everything that arises in the mind starts flowing with a sensation on the body.”
2 – Vedana is not just “body sensations” involving just kaya or the body.; see, “Vedana (Feelings)“.
3 – Each and every thought is initiated by a sensation received by any of the six indriya (or ayatana): cakkhu (seeing), sota (hearing), ghana (a smell), jivha (a taste) ,kaya (body sensation), and mano (dhamma coming to the mind).”The sensations that we are told to observ do not come purely from the mind, are not created only by it. Vedana, as you correctly indicate, come from all the six-senses, plus the atmosphere, the food and the old heavy patterns (sankharas).
So, what we are told to be aware of is the result (effect) of all conctact (factor of pariccasamuppada).
It turn out to be very clear when you are by day 7 to 10… personally I once experienced a vibration from my right ear to the rest of the body when the gong was hitted. There was like dense particles moving like a flow. It was very insightful and at the same time not so much, my equanimity got broken ????I do not understand why Goenka’s method will not lead to the realization of nibbana.
As I understand, if we take any factor (vedana) of the dependent origination chain (paticcasamuppada) and realice his true nature i.e. Anicca, dukkha and anatta, we break the cycle and the whole process collapses.More info about Goenka’s method:
– The 10 day retreat is only a introduction to the technique. In the long ones you are told to pay attention to your mind, his types and the mental factors too.
– The anapana meditation is suppoused to develop till jhana levels.
– There is an important mark of the personal evolution in the path = “bhanga” or dissolution of the body.Please correct me if I’m wrong
Metta!
