[drs8]

Thanks Lal,

Actually , after your first answer, I already understood  its a waste of time investigating this universe stuff.  Its never ending, and with our current knowledge, its impossible to “prove” lots of finding about the universe anyways.

Thanks again for your time and effort.

 

[drs8]

Hi Lal, So when Ven Moggallana went to find the end of the universe, how did he go ? Was it like a photon type of massless state? So he could travel faster than the speed of light?  Or when this astral travel happens during meditation, how is the astral body made of(In terms of physics)?. Is it correct to assume there are more fundamental forces than gravity, electromagnetism, and weak and strong nuclear force? Because modern physics cannot correctly explain these phenomena.  I understand these questions are unrelated to Nibbana. But I was just curious.

[drs8]

Thanks Vince, This makes more sense. One of the biggest concept among many Thai Ajahns is you can meditate by yourself and once the mind has samadhi then you will understand Dhamma. I cant think of any other misleading concept than this. And I know many people who believe this. I know many monks who believe the same theory and practice as hard as they can alone to realize dhamma. Some goes as far as many weeks of fasting and some goes even without a sleep for many days to realize dhamma. Its kind of sad. And even among all the teachers, I couldn’t find anyone who could explain the true meaning of the Suttas like we see on Pure Dhamma. Specially once I realized the true meaning of Anicca, Dukka and Anatta now I cant turn my head towards the Thai Tradition. So now, I only take good things that I can apply to my life from them and for Dhamma, I just park them.

Thanks again for your great input.

[drs8]

Hi Akvan

I fully agree with you. But saying that, Buddha said, “if someone teaching wrong dhamma, you must correct it, but should not do any personal criticism”. I think this is applicable to lay people as well.

If someone teaches dhamma, which is not in line with the Buddha’s teaching (whether the person who teaches a layperson or a monk), then anyone can find the truth and rectify that. And they should. We can follow any monk as a teacher, but the supreme teacher above all is the Buddha. My intention here was to verify such dhamma taught by Thai Ajahns are correct or not. More I learn about the actual meaning of the Sutta, I tend to disagree with many Thai Ajahns teachings. This is one of the famous Thai Ajahns four noble truth explanation.

The mind sent outside is the origination of suffering.
The result of the mind sent outside is suffering.
The mind seeing the mind is the path.
The result of the mind seeing the mind is the cessation of suffering

I have no intention of any personal criticism. But a true intention to find true teachings of the Buddha. if @Lal or anyone has any explanation to do on this, much appreciated.

[drs8]

Hi Embodied,

We are living in this world and have to use the accepted terms. Even the Buddha used the accepted terms. His disciples had names, towns had names and such and such. So in the same way there are many certain things in this world. Ex- Sun will surely rise tomorrow morning. If someone cut my skin, I will surely bleed. So all these things are certain and there are many. So how can someone describes Anicca as Uncertain. That doesn’t make sense to me. Cos, if something is Anicca, it must cause Dukka. But not all the uncertain things cause any Dukka. So it doesnt match the whole Anicca, Dukka and Anatta. So how is this Uncertain means Anicca.

Buddha taught these 3 characteristics as “Pubbe ananussuthesu Dhammesu”, means “Dhamma that never heard before”. I’m most certain people back then already knew how many uncertain things are there is their lives. Even a normal person knows that life is uncertain. It doesnt mean, its Anicca.

This world actually exists. If the world doesn’t exist, then there is no Buddha , Dhamma , Sangha exist as well. If someone pour hot water to your body, you feel pain and your skin burns. Is this also a phenomena? I very much doubt it.

[drs8]

Hi Akvan

Thanks for this. The only reason I felt bit worried because I’ve met some great Thai teachers which I still very highly respect. But as you experienced, I feel that their path is not the path Buddha explained. I still fully support them by provide all the necessary requisites.

But for Dhamma, I feel I dont want to follow that path. Most of those monks haven’t read the Tripitaka and some of them even told, the Tripitaka may not have been written by Arahants back in the days and so it could be wrong.

None of them have really given any true meaning of Tripitaka like we understand now. Even one of the great Thai Ajahns , Luang tha Maha Boowa, said he doesnt believe the Dhammachakka sutta directly leads to Nibbana (I mean even to Sotapanna). So I believed all those. So when my faith started to shake, I felt scared. Thats why I felt bit scared to follow them.

And one of the greatest Thai Ajahns , Ajahn Chah , explained the Anicca as “Not sure, uncertain”. But knowing what I know now, I can’t agree with that as there are many certain things in the world. Ex, if someone hits me, I will surely feel pain. So I argued with myself thinking “How come all those great monks can be wrong? How about a great monk like Luang Pu Mun can be wrong??” .

This is the main reason why I had to ask this question in this forum.

Appreciate your input.

[drs8]

Another part

When I have recommended body contemplation to
others, some answered: “That is only one valid way
of practice, but other ways are equally good. To say
that only one way will lead to path attainment is
narrow-minded. Luang por Chah taught to practice
more openly and broadly than that, using reflections
such as ‘Don’t attach’ or ‘It’s not sure.’” How would
you answer this, Ajahn?
If I did not feel the people were open and receptive to being
taught, I would not say much at all. It is easier to remove a
mountain than to change people’s attachment to their views. In
twenty or thirty years you can gradually blow up a huge mountain,
but people’s views can remain steadfastly fixed for a lifetime,
many lifetimes. Those who say body contemplation is a narrow
path, are themselves trapped in narrow thinking. In truth, body
contemplation is very broad and leads to great freedom due to
true insight.
From my experience and from seeing the results of others
in their practice, to realize Dhamma, to attain at least
sotāpanna,
is impossible without thoroughly and deeply uprooting the
identification with the body. Even the likes of Luang Pu Tate and
Luang Ta Mahā Boowa, monks with enormous
pāramī
and refined
awareness throughout the day, had to go back and contemplate
the body before they realized the Dhamma. It is not enough
to do it just a few times either. The great Forest teachers had
to contemplate over and over. They would then get results in
accordance with their
pāramī
and effort. It is not enough simply
to be aware of postures of the body. You must train yourself to
be an expert at seeing the body as
asubha
(not beautiful). When
one who has mastered this sees other people, especially someone
of the opposite sex, the
asubha
perception is immediately
brought up to counter any
kilesas
that appear. The body must be repeatedly broken up into parts or deeply seen as impermanent
for real insight to arise. It is possible to realize the first stage of
the path through contemplating the death of one’s own body.
When mastered, body contemplation is amazing and wonderful
in all sorts of ways – not narrow at all. Wherever Luang Pu Mun
went, he would rely on body contemplation to keep his heart light
and at ease
There are many monks with a lot of
pāramī
who claim that
their mind is continually light and bright, that
kilesas
do not
arise at all or only in subtle ways and that Dhamma is clear to
them. They claim that they see everything arising and passing
away and that they do not attach to any of it – so they do not see
any need to investigate the body. However, this is just
samādhi,
being stuck in
samādhi
, being attached to a self-image of being
enlightened, of being someone who understands Dhamma. But
they are still stuck in
saṁsāra
without anything preventing
them from falling into lower realms in the future.
Kilesas
are
very tricky, very clever. If you look at the practice of truly
enlightened people, you will see that they all followed the path of
body contemplation.
Luang Por Chah himself practiced this way. He taught
asubha
practice – especially investigation of hair, body hair, nails, teeth
and skin or seeing the body as a rotten corpse – but he would teach
this more in private to specific individuals. Publicly he tended not
to emphasize it as much as some of the other Forest teachers. I
think this was because he saw that the majority of people were not
ready for it. They still needed to work with general mindfulness
as a base for developing
samādhi
, so he taught general ‘letting go’.
It is not correct to say that Luang Por Chah did not teach body
contemplation.

If the mind is not concentrated, body contemplation will only
be superficial. However, it is still necessary to become acquainted
with it from the beginning. Then gradually
nimittas
(images and perceptions of the
asubha, anicca, dukkha, anattā
nature of the body)
will arise.

[drs8]

This is a talk given by Ajahn Dtuns (Translated by Ajahn Te)

How essential is body contemplation? Didn’t the
Venerable Ajahn Chah teach ‘letting go’?

It is essential to investigate the body to see the mind clearly.
Sometimes people take Luang Por Chah’s teachings from the end of
the path and forget about the instructions for the beginning. If one
has not passed beyond all attachment to the body, it is impossible to
clearly investigate the mind. The investigation of
citta
and
dhamma
satipatthānas
(the four foundations of mindfulness: the body,
feelings, mind and
dhammas
) is the path of practice for
anāgāmis
.
Before that, they can be investigated, but only superficially.
Sometimes you hear people say, ‘
Kilesas
are in the mind, not in
the body, so it is the mind that should be contemplated.’ But it
is only by passing beyond attachment to the body that the other
khandhas
(the five physical and mental components of personality:

body, feeling, memory, thinking and consciousness) become clear.
Without investigating the body as elements, as
asubha
, as thirty-
two parts, one will not be able to realize
sotāpanna
. Even those with
great
pāramī
, such as Luang Por Tate and Luang Ta Mahā Boowa,
had to go through the body to realize the path.
It is important to note that in the higher ordination ceremony to
become a Buddhist monk, the preceptor must instruct the candidate
for ordination on the five principal objects of meditation: hair, body
hair, nails, teeth and skin. To not give this instruction invalidates
the whole ordination. And why? Because the Lord Buddha knew
that by not instructing a candidate on such an essential topic would
be the cause for those persons Holy-Life to be unfruitful, or more
precisely, they will not realize the noble paths to awakening, their
fruitions, nor Nibbāna

[Author]

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