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What caught my attention was Uppatti Paticca Sammupada is a specific version of Idappaccayata Paticca Samuppada.
Then I thought that Uppatti Paticca Samuppada starts from salayatana paccaya phassa too.
So I referred to this diagram to contemplate Uppatti Paticca Samuppada.
Purana and Nava Kamma – 1 (new).jpg
From the “namarupa paccaya salayatana” stage, up to the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage, kamma nimitta or gati nimitta comes in as sensory input.
Next, one clings to nimitta through tanha paccaya upadana.
avijja paccaya sankhara leads to the arising of javana citta.
sankhara paccaya vinnana initiates the operation of kamma vinnana.
vinnana paccaya namarupa begins the generation of uppatti bhava energy. (dhammā rupa)
Finally, in the bhava paccaya jati stage, the dhammā rupa formed in the vinnana paccaya namarupa stage now condense up to the suddhatthaka stage and form the kammaja kaya, namely the birth of manomaya kaya.
Subsequently, bhava paccaya jati applies again, leading manomaya kayas to acquire karaja kaya.
If there are any inaccuracies in my understanding, please let me know. Thank you.
I understand. I think I rushed too much. It felt like I almost had everything done, which made me more impatient. Thank you for your kind words. It’s currently 11:17 PM in Korea. I’ll go to sleep for now and review it again in the morning. Have a nice day!
I truly appreciate your concern.
What I wanted to ask in 50835 was why in Uppatti Paticca Samuppada, the pasada rupa and hadaya vatthu formed at the bhava paccaya jati step are also being explained at the vinnana paccaya namarupa step.
Aren’t these explaining the same event from a different perspective?
In all honesty, I don’t quite understand what I might be missing in 50836.
It’s not that I don’t understand “bhava paccaya jati”; rather, I would like to understand how it is distinguished from “vinnana paccaya namarupa”.
From what I have learned in 50836, bhava in “bhava paccaya jati” is formed through the “vinnana paccaya namarupa” stage.
Is this the difference between the two?
Then, does the formation of pasada rupa and hadaya vatthu occur only in “bhava paccaya jati” (and not “vinnana paccaya namarupa”)?
I apologize for any inconvenience, but although I read the post, I wasn’t able to fully understand it. I believe there might have been something I missed at the time.
The non-linear progression is particularly confusing for me. Could you kindly explain step-by-step when it progresses linearly and when it progresses non-linearly? In the meantime, I will re-read the entire Paticca Samuppada section myself.
I am asking not to trouble Lal, but simply because I sincerely want to understand what I couldn’t grasp. Please have mercy on me and kindly explain it in an easy-to-understand manner.
with metta.
I said:
Although the two share some common ground, I believe they emphasize different points. In “namarupa paccaya salayatana,” the emphasis is on the contamination of the mind. This leads to samphassa, samphassa ja vedana, tanha, and upadana. On the other hand, “bhava paccaya jati” emphasizes the sequences that follow bhava. This leads to jati paccaya jara maranam soka parideva dukkha domanassam upayasa.
For example, in the case of theft, the former describes the process by which the mind is contaminated through theft, while the latter describes the suffering that theft leads to.
Therefore, I think these two discuss the same thing in different ways.
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I have been pondering over the reasons why I thought this way.#10At the end of existence (bhava), a given lifestream jumps from one kind of existence to another. The easiest to visualize is in the case of a Brahma to a Deva transition. The “nāma” part changes from a Brahma to a Deva, and the “rupa” part changes from 2 pasada rupa for the Brahma to 5 for the Deva.– That transition happens in the latter part of the last citta vīthi of the life of Brahma. At that cuti-patisandhi moment, the “Brahma nāmarupa” dies, and a “Deva nāmarupa” is created by kammic energy.—I thought this description overlapped with the “bhava paccaya jati” step. If “vinnana paccaya namarupa” and “bhava paccaya jati” are separate and independent stages, how are they different?I just reviesed some points.
Purana Kamma
This two steps are where cakkhunca paticca rupe ca uppajjati cakkhuvinnanam occurs.
step 1: bahidda vinnana “dhatu -> sanna”
- sensory input: nimitta
- using indriya
- on: bahidda rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana
- altered rupa
- bahidda vedana + distorted sanna → giving sensory input experiences
- It depends on the quality of “natural bhavanga state”
- It is not pabhassara citta!
- anusaya/samyojana works in this step. Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) #12
- patisamvedi step
step 2: ajjhatta vinnana “sanna ->sankappa”
- sensory input: arammana
- using ayatana
- on: ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana
- XX vineyya rupa. ex) cakku vineyya rupa
- samphassa ja vedana (somanassa and domanassa)
- defiled and mind-made sensory input experiences
- bhava starts in here.
- sangati begin working in this step. Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) #12
- kamaguna works in this step.
- raga or dosa(patigha) patisamvedi step starts in here
Nava Kamma
step 3: tanha paccaya upadana “sankappa -> chanda”
- defiled gati works in this step.
- It depends on one’s gati and how strong a given arammana to occur. Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought #19
step 4: avijja paccaya sankhara “chanda -> parilaha”
- vinnana get more conteminating
- state of agitation
step 5: avijja paccaya sankhara “parilaha -> pariyesana” (stronger than step 4)
- vaci and kaya abhisankhara
- one is fully engaged with making new kamma
May I ask whether the suddhatthaka completely fills the akasa? This seemed somewhat nonsensical to me, but I found it difficult to answer.
Purana Kamma
This two steps are where cakkhunca paticca rupe ca uppajjati cakkhuvinnanam occurs.
step 1: bahidda vinnana “dhatu -> sanna”
- sensory input: nimitta
- using indriya
- on: bahidda rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana
- altered rupa
- bahidda vedana + distorted sanna → giving sensory input experiences
- It depends on the quality of “natural bhavanga state”
- It is not pabhassara citta!
- anusaya/samyojana works in this step. Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) #12
- patisamvedi step
- only mano sankhara
Q1. Does pabhassara citta start in kama or rupa or arupa dhatu? Or it just does not start in any dhatu?
- My guess: it probably does not attach to any dhatu.
step 2: ajjhatta vinnana “sanna ->sankappa”
- sensory input: arammana
- using ayatana
- on: ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana
- XX vineyya rupa. ex) cakku vineyya rupa
- samphassa ja vedana (somanassa and domanassa)
- defiled and mind-made sensory input experiences
- bhava starts in here.
- sangati begin working in this step. Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) #12
- only mano sankhara too.
Nava Kamma
step 3: tanha paccaya upadana “sankappa -> chanda”
- mano abhisankhara
- defiled gati works in this step.
- raga or dosa(patigha) patisamvedi step starts in here
- kamaguna works in this step.
- It depends on one’s gati and how strong a given arammana to occur. Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought #19
step 4: ?? “chanda -> parilaha”
- mano abhisankhara
- vinnana get more conteminating
- state of agitation
Q2. What should I call this step?
step 5: avijja paccaya sankhara (stronger than step 4) “parilaha -> pariyesana”
- vaci and kaya abhisankhara
- one is fully engaged with making new kamma
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Pdf file: “Dosakkhayo – Purana and Nava Kamma.”
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Please let me know if there are any mistakes or if any additional information is needed. Thank you.
I feel that Dhamma deals with the infinite. Vipassana seems to teach us how to properly see the infinite nature and life. In this regard, Buddha Dhamma speaks of how to navigate without losing our way within the infinite. Within this infinity(samsara), people only see a part of the whole, each creating their own picture and believing in it. However, this cannot encompass the whole. Only the Buddha can see the entirety, and we can hear and understand this from the Buddha or his disciples (Buddha savaka).
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It seems that this thread might have been missed. I worry that too many questions might inconvenience you. However, if it’s not too much trouble, could you please respond?
Alright. I understand that it is an acinteyya topic.
I have a slightly different question: Is the continuous generation of utuja kaya through javana citta essential for the maintenance of the physical body? Or is the maintenance of the physical body operated by a separate mechanism?
In the process of sending commands to the brain, does the arising of suddhatthaka at the hadaya vatthu always occur, or does it only happen when the mind is defiled? For example, in the case of an Arahant, since javana citta cannot arise, does this mean that no suddhatthaka arises at all even when they move their body?”
