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It is not a humorous story, Grenier.
– If you think it is humorous, that is fine too.The Buddha was just providing an analogy, and it is a small part of the whole sutta. It is about a serious matter.
Those who want to look into it, I would recommend the following translation:
“Discourse on the Parable of the Saw”By the way, please don’t open too many new topics. You could have replied to my post in the previous thread.
I don’t think the Buddha engaged in humor at all.
If you have a specific Tipitaka reference we can discuss.
Hello Lair,
In case you are not aware, there are TWO sets of videos with English subtitles.
1. The first set is listed in my post dated June 19, 2020 (see above). This set of videos is by Janith Fernando.
– The English (and Sinhala) texts for each video are provided under each video in pdf files (see above).
– By the way, this was done AFTER you and Seng Kiat helped create a document off of the screenshots for the first video. Now, Janith Fernando is sending me the texts and I post them under each video.
– I revised and expanded the first transcript that you and Seng Kiat made. I posted that document on June 18, 2020 (see above).2. There is a second set of videos by Waharaka TV. They are posted in my post dated July 10, 2020 (see above).
– These have English text only on the video screen.
– No text files are available for these videos.If it is still not clear, please send me an email. Thanks!
Added parts 2 and 3 of the Series to Waharaka TV transcriptions of Waharaka Thero’s Desanas listed in my post on July 10, 2020, above.
Hello Billy,
The verse that you refer to lists five types of macchariya: macchariya for residences, one’s caste, profit, health, and knowledge.
– One would be reluctant to share any of those with others. So, such a person would try to hide them from others.Macchariya is sort fo the opposite of issa or jealousy. In that case, one would envious of such possessions of others.
As I said, just like dosa is a manifestation of greed, those are also different manifestations of greed.
– But they are not pure greed (lobha).When avijja and tanha are removed, lobha, dosa, and all other associated cetasika would not arise.
By the way, raga (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) are lower levels of lobha.
– See, “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā”The following post is from Billy:
Hi Lal, Thank you very much for your answer.
I read another meaning of Macchariya that means selfishness I want to know if selfishness is the meaning of Macchariya? Because this meaning will make people think that Macchariya is in the Lobha team.
My friend also sent me a link to the Pali Mahāniddeso jarāsuttaniddeso page
She told me to see {206.1}She asked me why the Lord Buddha taught that Macchariya is the same group as Lobha.
But after I read your answer in this post, I immediately believed that your answer was correct, but I still didn’t understand much. I would like to thank you once again for writing the answer as well.Here are some things to think about.
1. Mōha (delusion); Ahirika (shamelessness); Anottapa (fearlessness in wrong); uddhacca (restlessness or agitation) arise in ALL akusala cittas.
2. Only lobha or dosa can arise in a given akusala citta. Both CANNOT arise together.
3. Of course, dosa (or hatred/anger) arises when one does not get one’s desire fulfilled. That desire/carving arise due to lobha. Therefore, lobha and dosa are connected in a way, even though they cannot arise together.
The following are directly related to your question:
4. Out of 12 akusala cittas, lobha arises in EIGHT types (lobha-rooted cittas). (see p. 32 of Ref.1 below).
– Lobha (greed) arises ONLY in those 8 cittas. (see p. 95 of Ref.1 below).5. There are only TWO Dosa-rooted akusala cittas. (see p. 36 of Ref.1 below).
– Dosa, issa, macchariya, and kukkucca can arise ONLY in those two types of cittas. (see p. 95 of Ref.1 below).
– Note that dosa, issa, macchariya, and kukkucca are listed in English as hatred, envy, avarice, and worry in Ref. 1.Ref.1: “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi”
The page numbers quoted above are the page numbers indicated on each page of Ref. 1.
The main point is the following.
– Issa, macchariya, and kukkucca are not “pure greed.”
– Just like dosa, they arise as a by-product of greed.
– I looked up the standard definition of avarice. It says, “extreme greed for wealth or material gain.” That is not the meaning of macchariya. Macchariya means when someone who has a lot of wealth tries to hide it from others, due to his fear that he may have to it share his wealth with others.
– Issa is jealousy.
– So, we can see that all four cetasika of dosa, issa, macchariya, and kukkucca are not PURE GREED. They are all byproducts of greed (lobha). They can arise ONLY in those two types of cittas in #5 above.The following post is from Billy:
Hi Lal
Really glad to hear from you.
Here this is my reply that disappeared.(captured from Abhidhamma book and web)
Just as I read that book in the Thai translation, I responded a little late because I had to search for an English translation that has the same meaning as Thai.
Abhidhammattha Sangaha in the Abhidhamma schools has been teaching for many decades, which taught that “Macchariya is cetasika, one of the Dosa team because it arises with Dosa citta.” Even the English translation teaches this way too.
But I feel it is wrong Because the opposite of Macchariya is Caga, one of Ariyadhana. I feel that Macchariya is cetasika, one of the Lobha team, and arise with Lobha citta + Miccha ditthi because the one who can completely cut Macchariya is Sotapanna puggala. But I didn’t find that Abhidhamma school would teach like this And the professors here often look at those who do not agree with the books of the Abhidhamma School Is the bad people that destroy Buddha dhamma, so I can only keep in mind until today.
I’ve been following your online writing for four years, but I’m not good at English (100%Thai). I have to use Google Translate every time to write, but I can read and understand the meaning of English immediately (It’s very strange).
Hello Billy!
You asked, “I was wondering why in this book it was written Macchariya cetasika coupled with Dosa citta.
If Macchariya cetasika is extreme greed, why isn’t it coupled with Lobha citta?”Could you quote the actual verse in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha?
– Or, you could just give me the page number so that I can look it up.Added part 7 of the Series to Janith Fernando’s transcriptions of Waharaka Thero’s Desanas listed in my post on June 19, 2020, above.
Yes. There is a sutta that describes such instructions by Ven. Sariputta to someone at deathbed. I am not sure whether that is to Anathapindika.
– I think Anathapindika was reborn in a Deva realm.
– In the relevant sutta, Ven. Sariputta directed the mind of a dying person to higher and higher Brahma realms progressively. That person was reborn in a Brahma realm.But that would be possible ONLY IF the dying person has accrued enough merits.
– Some other kamma vipaka could have been blocking him from “accessing” a higher Brahama realm.Unless one has accrued the necessary merits, even a Buddha cannot help anyone.
– Otherwise, the Buddha would have “saved” everyone from rebirth in apayas.1 user thanked author for this post.
One may be able to look at a given word in different ways.
But pāpa means the opposite of puñña.
– A pāpa kamma is a highly-immoral kamma that will lead to rebirth in an apaya.
– A puñña kamma will lead to rebirth in good realms.
– See the post referred to in my first comment above.The Buddha and his disciples called the Māra Devaputta pāpi Māra” or pāpima“because the Māra Devaputta encourages people to stay in kama loka.
See, for example, “Māratajjanīya Sutta (MN 50)”
– From the two translations there, the following is a bit better: “Discourse On A Rebuke To Māra”Pāpa kamma discussed in, “Mahāli Sutta (AN 10.47)” for example.
Yes. The Buddha Sāsana will end in about 2500 years in the HUMNA WORLD.
However, there will be Ariyas (Noble Persons) in higher realms for much longer.
– In particular, there can be Brahmas in higher realms who are Anagamis for many eons.
– For example, Sahampati Brahma told Buddha Gotama that he attained the Anagami stage many eons ago when he learned Dhamma from a different Buddha. As we remember from “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” post, higher-lying Brahma realms are not destroyed in a “loka vināsa“, i.e., when the Earth blows up and destroyed.
– Sahampati Brahma says he listened to several Buddhas after attaining the Anagami stage and born in that realm.So, to Johnny’s question: “can there be any Sakadāgāmi devas leftover from Kassapa Buddha’s dhamma era when Gautama Buddha appeared on earth?”
– Yes. That is possible. But such Devas are not born in the human world and thus cannot bring Buddha Sāsana to the human world. In other words, a Sakadāgāmi deva who attained that during the previous Buddha (Buddha Kassapa) would not be born in the human world AFTER the end of Buddha Kassapa’s Sasana. Only another Buddha (in this case Buddha Gotama) can bring Buddha Dhamma to the humans after that.Yes. You are correct.
There are many different interpretations of the term “papañcasaññāsaṅkhā.”Here is a comment in a discussion forum that I came across when searching for that term.
“MN 18 is a very good example but this might be against the view of a dvanda compound and might support my considering of a tappurisa compound. Below translations of the compound papañcasaññāsaṅkhā:
Yatonidānaṃ, bhikkhu, purisaṃ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti
Mendicant, a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions. – Sujato
the origin of the number (saṅkhā) of perceptions and obsessions which assail a man – Horner
the source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man – Bodhi
the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her – Thanissaro”
The quote is from, “Re: Is Papanca commentary, identification or both?”
So, yes, there is a lot of confusion about translating some Pali words.
– I have explained my translation of papañca. It is up to each person to scrutinize and see which translation is correct.
– Of course, one needs to look at many different suttas to whether a given translation is consistent with other suttas.
– papañcasaññāsaṅkhā needs a lot of explanation. I will need to write a post to explain it. Hopefully, I will be able to do that in the near future.However, I think it is important to understand the meaning of papañca. I have explained it in my previous post above.
Hello Grenier!
It is not correct to translate “papañca” as “”making manifold.”
Papañca means to be “blinded by sensual pleasures” and to engage in highly-immoral deeds. One who engages in such thoughts, speech, and actions is bound to be reborn in the four lowest realms (apāyā.)
This is discussed, for example, in the “Madhupiṇḍika Sutta (MN 18)“.
For example, the following is a key verse there: “yatonidānaṃ, bhikkhu, purisaṃ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti. Ettha ce natthi abhinanditabbaṃ abhivaditabbaṃ ajjhositabbaṃ. Esevanto rāgānusayānaṃ … pe … etthete pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhantī’ti..”
Papañca is thus related to pāpa kammā. See #13 of the post, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma”
– It is a good idea to read that post to get a good idea about the words, kusala/akusala kamma and puñña/pāpa kamma.
