Post On What Are Kilesa (Mental Impurities)? – Connection to Cetasika

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    • #30869
      firewns
      Participant

      Hi Lal,

      I have the greatest respect for your dedication to spreading the Buddhadhamma and mean no disrespect. That is such a noble and worthwhile undertaking! However, it has come to my attention that there may be some discrepancy between the implications of what you wrote in one of your posts and what could be factually true. It is not outright wrong, but it could be misleading due to the way it is worded.

      In the post ‘What Are Kilesa (Mental Impurities)? – Connection to Cetasika’, you wrote in #2: Sobhana or asobhana cetasika (moral or immoral mental factors) are what makes a given citta a moral (kusala) or immoral (akusala). It is true that sobhana cetasikas arise together with kusala cittas, but asobhana cetasikas may not necessarily always condition akusala cittas (In this case, I take the conditioning and conditioned to arise at the same time, which could be an unusual way of thinking for many people, but is accepted in the Patthana Dhamma, at least from what I am aware of). Asobhana cetasikas may also condition maha kusala cittas, maha vipaka cittas and maha kiriya cittas. Yet this point is not stressed in your writing, and due to the way it is worded, unwary people may think that asobhana cetasikas always condition akusala cittas, which is not true.

      This is because asobhana cetasikas include all cetasikas that are not sobhana, including the annasamana cetasikas (7 sabbacitta-sadharana and 6 pakinnaka), as well as 14 akusala cetasikas such as lobha and dosa. As such, asobhana cetasikas may not only arise with akusala cittas, they may also arise with ahetuka vipakacittas and ahetuka kiriyacittas. They are ahetuka because they do not have the 6 roots (hetus) of lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa and amoha. The eighteen types of ahetuka cittas include 10 dvi-pancavinnanas, 2 sampatichanna-cittas, 3 santirana-cittas, 1 pancadvaravajjana-citta, 1 manodvaravajjana-citta, and 1 hasituppada-citta.

      Perhaps it would be better to substitute the phrase ‘akusala cetasikas’ for ‘asobhana cetasikas’ in your post.

      Would you be able to verify that this is indeed correct in the Abhidhamma? Many thanks for your efforts, and I am immensely grateful!

      With metta,
      firewns

    • #30877
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Hello, firewns,

      You wrote: “Asobhana cetasikas may also condition maha kusala cittas, maha vipaka cittas and maha kiriya cittas. Yet this point is not stressed in your writing, and due to the way it is worded, unwary people may think that asobhana cetasikas always condition akusala cittas, which is not true.”

      I think you have got it wrong. Asobhana cetasika (bad mental factors) arise ONLY in akusala citta.

      Next you wrote, “This is because asobhana cetasikas include all cetasikas that are not sobhana, including the annasamana cetasikas (7 sabbacitta-sadharana and 6 pakinnaka), as well as 14 akusala cetasikas such as lobha and dosa.”

      I have highlighted the root problem in your statement. Asobhana cetasika arise ONLY in akusala citta.

      Let me clarify the basics:

      1. There are 7 cetasika that are in each and every citta. These are called universals (sabba citta sādhārana)

      2. There are six cetasika that also CAN appear in both types of cittā: kusala and akusala. However, they are found in only particular types of cittā. They are called particulars or pakinnaka.

      3. There are 14 asobhana cetasika (non-beautiful mental factors) that appear only in akusala citta.

      4. There are 25 sobhana cetasika (beautiful mental factors.) They appear only in kusala citta.

      5. As a rule, sobhana and asobhana cetasika CANNOT appear together in a given citta.

      I just revised the following post on cetasika to make these very clear:
      Cetasika (Mental Factors)” 

      I also revised the post that you quoted to add some subsections to simplify:
      What Are Kilesa (Mental Impurities)? – Connection to Cetasika

      What I stated above is in any standard Abhidhamma text. See, for example, Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”. See Chapter 2, “Compendium of Mental Factors”

    • #30908
      firewns
      Participant

      Thank you for your reply, Lal. I am glad to know your explanation.

      With metta,
      firewns

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