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Yes. I did not quite have it worded right.
Just revised that sentence to:
“Pancupādānakkhandhā are based on past experiences that we liked.”Thanks, Tobias!
Hello Grenier,
Your quote of Bodhiketu merits some discussion. He says, “The Western Buddhist Order has been going long enough now for there to be many of us who have practiced sincerely and effectively for 20,30 and even 40 years. So are there Stream Entrants in the Order? If there are none, one could be forgiven for harbouring doubts.”
1. The key is to figure out what he understands by the “Stream Entry” or the Sotapanna stage.
– Did you see his idea of “Stream Entry” or how to get there? What did he expect to experience or gain once he got there? Apparently, he is discouraged by not being able to get there. But I am not sure he even KNOWS what “Stream Entry” means.2. Have you thought about what you expect from studying Buddha Dhamma?
I would like to get some feedback on one or both of the above issues before I can respond.
Cubibobi: “When I brought up rebirth, this “Buddhist” launched right into a vehement denial of a human being reborn as an animal, claiming how unscientific that was.”
Science has undoubtedly made a lot of progress regarding INERT MATTER.
– But it has made ZERO progress about the mind, as I pointed out in the new post: “Theories of Our World – Scientific Overview”The following is a link to the lecture set by Bhikkhu Bodhi mentioned by Grenier:
“Bhikkhu Bodhi – 1 – The Buddha”– I watched a couple of lectures just to make sure.
– It is a great series of lectures for a beginner. It explains how to get to the MUNDANE eightfold path.
– Of course, Bhikkhu Bodhi, like many learned bhikkhus of today, still translates anicca and anatta as “impermanence” and “no-self.” I DO NOT recommend his interpretations when he gets to such deeper issues.
– Therefore, this series of lectures could ONLY be used as introductory material.I was thinking a bit more about the above issue.
It is a big problem. People try to mold Buddha Dhamma to their own world views.
– In particular, secular Buddhists (Google the term and read about it), do not believe in rebirth. So, they have their own version of “Buddhism.”
– Some others are scared of “extinction” at Nibbana. That is because they do not understand that there is no “soul-type” entity. Life is a series of “causes and effects”. Over long times that leads to much more suffering than any temporary happiness.All those are wrong views. One is not released from suffering as long as one has wrong views.
The only thing I (or anyone else) can do is to present the teachings of the Buddha in its original form. Hopefully, at least some people will understand.
– That is why I recently started a new series of posts to look at Buddha Dhamma from a more basic and fundamental level:
“Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach“Yes. I do.
It has to do with the background that one is brought up.
– Anyone can understand Buddha Dhamma IF they put their mind to it. The following are general statements based on my observations.
– Most Westerners are brought up with the idea of a Creator God. So, understanding the intricacies of Buddha Dhamma is not easy. I see that many are struggling with the concept of rebirth. Even worse, the idea of the possibility of rebirth in the animal realm could be disturbing too. In many religions, animals are supposed to be created by God for human consumption.
– Furthermore, they also face a lot of confusion because there are many versions of the Buddha Dhamma. So, one has to go through a lot of “stuff” out there, most of which is wrong. But how would one figure that out without looking at ALL that is out there?Hello Grenier,
I did a Google search and found the following article: “Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond,by Bodhiketu”
I had not heard about Bodhiketu and I briefly read through the above article.
– I don’t think he has a good understanding of Buddha Dhamma.
– That is the case with many. They try to interpret Buddha Dhamma in their own way.If I start to comment on all those different people’s writings, I will have no time left to do anything useful.
Cubibobi wrote: “In my culture, when someone young turns toward Dhamma, it tends to make someone in the family nervous (often times a parent).”
Yes. That is quite common.
– I guess those parents do not comprehend the suffering in the rebirth process.
– Even at the time of the Buddha, many were concerned about too many young people becoming bhikkhus.That is why it is hard for many people to embrace the true Dhamma.
– They just want to live a “happy life”, do meritorious deeds, and get rebirth in a Deva realm.
– In fact, that is exactly what many Buddhists wish for, unfortunately.
– They do not realize that all those “happy lives” INVARIABLY end up leading to rebirth in the apayas.As for proceeding on the Path, one will know what to do when the time comes. Each person is different.
– For example, Gatikara became an Anagami. He did not become a bhikkhu because he wanted to take care of his aging parents. Another bhikkhu at the time of the Buddha saw that his parents were going hungry. He started offering part of his meals that receives to his parents and the Buddha approved that.
– I personally know someone in Sri Lanka, who became a bhikkhu recently. He was an engineer and had a wife and two children. He worked overtime for a while to make sure he left enough money for his family before becoming a bhikkhu.Let me put this in a bit different way.
We are bound to this world (i.e., to the rebirth process) with ten “mental tethers” or “samyojana”. That can be compared to a dog tethered to a pole with ten chains.
The first three tethers are broken at the Sotapanna stage: Sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa.
– All three are about WRONG VIEWS. Thus they are tethers that are PRIMARILY related to moha.
– However, when those three tethers are broken, the other seven also become WEAKENED.Thus, at the Sotapanna stage, lobha is reduced to raga (kama raga, rupa, raga, arupa raga), and dosa is reduced to patigha. The other three samyojana (mana uddacca, avijja), directly related to moha reduce too.
– Therefore, at the Sotapanna stage, one would not have extreme greed or extreme anger (hate).
– But HOW MUCH kama raga and patigha that one may still have, is dependent on the person.
– Some people may lose a lot and could be very close to Sakadagami or even Anagami stage. Others may be far away from even the Sakadagami stage.That is why we see people with a wide range of gati (character) at the Sotapanna stage.
– Ven Ananda was a Sotapanna at the Parinibbana of the Buddha. But obviously, he was very much at a different “level” compared to Sarakani (who was unable to give up his drinking habit) or the woman who attained the Sotapanna stage at age seven and eloped with a hunter.
– The latter two had just barely reduced lobha to kama raga. They did not have the apayagami lobha level, but still had strong levels of kama raga.
– But of course, all three had “seen” the dangers of kama raga and patigha and the other samyojana.This is also why it is impossible for anyone else to decide whether one is a Sotapanna. Only that person would know. Even that person may not be certain until life experiences confirm that conclusion.
Other than giving an overview, I cannot be more specific, y not.
I explained that below the Angamai stage, it depends very much on each person.
– Anagami and Arahant stages are much more clearcut.The only other thing I can say is that the more the attachment, the stronger the (future) suffering.
– In my example of the Anagami, he totally lost one layer of attachment to his wives.
– But he still had some attachment to them, and that is why he agreed to live with them (treating them as his sisters.)Everyone should think about the following. If X dies, which of the following would bring more suffering?
X is a spouse, child, mother, father, relative, close friend, distant relative/friend, someone whom you know, a total stranger.
– I think the answer is obvious. The more the attachment, the higher the suffering.
– Of course, that does not mean one should forcefully lose attachment to one’s family. Things will be taken care of naturally.
– If someone foolishly decides to cut-off his/her family BY FORCE, for example, that person would be committing an immoral act. That is why I say it will happen naturally.y not asked: “One thing where I am stuck is emotional attachments. What is more, I cannot see myself letting go of those. Is this a very subtle form of greed?”
The best way to resolve this is to understand the meanings of Pali words for “greed”. There are very different levels of “greed.”
– Lobha is the highest form of greed. One can do “apayagami deeds” with lobha.
– Strength from lobha reduced to raga (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– All three levels of raga will gradually decrease as one makes progress. This is where there will be many different levels of loss of cravings for sensory pleasures.
– In particular, kama raga (craving for sensory pleasures) will be significantly lessened at the Sakadagami stage, and disappear at the Anagami stage.
– Rupa raga (loosely, cravings for sights and sounds) and arupa raga disappear only at the Arahant stage.Therefore, there are different levels of “emotional attachments” corresponding to those levels of greed (loosely speaking.)
– For example, there is a Tipitaka account of a person who became an Anagami. He had four wives.
– After attaining the Anagami stage, he told the wives that he would consider them only as sisters and that they are free to find suitable husbands if they so desire. One wife left and married another man. The other wives told him that they will stay with him and consider him to be their older brother.
– The point is that he did not abandon the other three wives.
– But if he attained the Arahant stage, then it would be impossible to live with other women or even to stay a “layperson.” An Arahant needs to become a bhikkhu. An Arahant has no emotional attachments to ANYTHING in this world.The two comments you made are quite consistent.
– You seem to be making good progress, Lvalio!This is an important point.
– One CANNOT forcefully give up sensory pleasures (or anything else.)
– The “giving-up” just HAPPENS when one realizes the unfruitfulness/dangers in continuing with those activities.For example, it is very difficult for a drug addict to give up drugs, or an alcoholic to give up drinking.
– They will voluntarily give up those habits if they can see the bad consequences of those activities.It is a bit harder to see the hidden dangers of sensory pleasures.
– That is why a fish will never see the dangers in biting to a tasty worm on a hook. A fish does not the ability to comprehend the hidden dangers.
– A human, in the absence of a Buddha, would not even hear about the hidden dangers of sensory pleasures. Even when explained, it is not easy to grasp it. So, I am glad that you seem to have grasped it.Here is another way to see it.
– The akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada process starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara” and INVARIABLY ends with “jati paccaya jara, marana, ..” or “the whole mass of suffering.”
– Now, these sankhara are nothing but our thoughts, speech, and actions to get hold of things that we crave for. Those cravings are mostly for sensory pleasures.
– They INVARIABLY end up in suffering (via bad births)
– But since those ‘bad births” occur in future lives, it is hard to register that in mind.P.S.
I saw the comment by y not after posting the above.
– y not wrote, “I still turn on the tv for the news, for instance.”Yes. I do too.
– That is a very low form of sensory pleasure. Such habits continue until the Arahant stage.
– One first gives up (voluntarily) those activities related to hatred and excess greed.Cubibobi wrote, “A friend of mine told me just last week something like: “I listened to a talk of Thero X; I now forget what he was talking about, but I still remember his jokes.”
Yes. I see that all the time. Even though one can get a bigger audience that way, it defeats the whole purpose in two ways:
1. Keeping the audience entertained is what musicians, comedians, etc. do. That helps people relieve their daily stresses.
– But that helps those same people bound to “this world.”
– There is a sutta that says such “entertainers” are destined to apāyā.
– This is the same reason that the Buddha called Māra Devaputta “immoral” (pāpi Māra)2. Liking “this world” and “liking Nibbāna” are mutually exclusive.
– One CANNOT get out of this world until one realizes the dangers of remaining in this world.
– However, even after “seeing that” at the Sotapanna stage, most people have difficulty in overcoming kāma rāga or liking for sensual pleasures.
– So, it is not helpful to draw people to “entertainment” and “worldly pleasures”
– One should always try to contemplate the dangers of remaining in the rebirth process.Moreover, if one can climb over the “initial wall” by starting to see the dangers of the rebirth process, then one would get a more permanent “peace of mind”. That is “nirāmisa sukha” that is reached by overcoming the craving for sensory pleasures.
– That is the hardest part in practice for many people. See, “Nirāmisa Sukha”P.S. I just found the sutta mentioned in #1 above:
“Talaputa Sutta: To Talaputa the Actor”Christian wrote, “I think that Buddha may appeal to someone’s humor”
As far as I know, there is no evidence in the Tipitaka that such a case took place.
So, we should not just speculate.
– If there is evidence in the Tipitaka, then we can discuss it.People do not understand how serious the suffering in the rebirth process is. The Buddha said many times, not to waste a single moment. Those were his last words too.
Hello Grenier,
No problem. The point is that unless you start discussing a different topic, it is better to continue the discussion on the same thread.
Regarding your quotes by others, it would be good to see the original posts by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Bhikkhu Sujato, Gombrich, etc.
It is not fair to them for me to comment specifically without seeing their posts.
– Would it be possible to provide the links to their comments?
– The way to do that is explained in the following post:
“How to Post/Reply to a Forum Question”If those instructions are not clear, you can email the links to me ([email protected]) and I can post them for you.
