[pathfinder]

Suppose there was a wise and proficient yogi, who could see a siezable number of past lives (eg 100). He would have seen himself attain the highest jhanas and born in the brahma realms, and he would also see himself fall to Niraya. In fact he would see himself in the apayas more often than not. From this and some contemplation, it is very likely that the yogi can reach the following conclusions:

There is nothing that can be mantained to my liking (anicca)

One will go through suffering in every realm, especially in the apayas, but higher realms also have decay and death (dukkha)

There is always birth, decay and death in every realm. There is no refuge in any one of them (anatta)

In fact he will be able to utter the first noble truth: jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ, (Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; illness is suffering; death is suffering; association with the disliked is suffering; separation from the liked is suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering.) maybe except for the part of  “saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.” – In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.

He will is also likely to be clear of the Miccha Ditthi:

• Giving (dāna) has no merits (though he will not have full understanding of kamma, it is possible that he sees some pattern, eg donating food in one life and receiving many in another.)
• being grateful and responding in kind (for what others have done for oneself) has no merits (Same ^)
• respecting and making offerings to those with higher virtues has no merits (Same ^)
• We enjoy/suffer in this life, not due to kamma vipāka, but they “just happen.” (Same ^)
• this world does not exist (Same ^)
• para lōka or the world of gandhabba does not exist (See himself in gandhabba stage)
• there is no special person as a mother (Seeing himself end up in niraya after killing a parent)
• no special person as a father
• there are no ōpapātika (instantaneous) births (See himself born instantaneously in deva realms)
• there are no Samana brahmana (basically Ariyā or yogis) with abhiññā powers who can see  both this world (imanca lōkam) and para lōka (paranca lokam) (He himself can do so)

At this rate there should be sotapannas without need for Buddha’s teachings! What isit that they are missing? Is this “missing link” the more important thing that we should contemplate on, rather than the ones that the yogis can already see?

[Lal]

Pathfinder wrote: “At this rate there should be sotapannas without need for Buddha’s teachings!”

• But those are the teachings of the Buddha! For example, otherwise, you would not know about the ten types of miccha ditthi.
• Of course, your description of anariya yogis being able to see ALL types of past lives in incorrect. They cannot see their past lives in the apayas. Only SOME Ariyas at higher stages of magga phala can see ALL their previous lives.

[taryal]

I believe a sotapanna has removed sakkaya ditthi, right? A yogi who attains anariya jhana to recall past lives would most likely believe in an immortal soul/self. So they would try to find a way to be reborn in a good realm with minimal suffering instead of thinking about stopping the existence in this world (of 31 realms) since they wouldn’t know what Nibbana is.

[pathfinder]

Hmm actually i’m trying to get to a deeper point here. “Becoming a sotapanna” is just a rhetorical question to show how absurd it is for a yogi to become a sotapanna just like that. But what i’m trying to get at is that the contemplation of anicca, dukkha and anatta does not seem to be enough since yogis who can see past lives can already come to such conclusions. 

Lal: Of course, your description of anariya yogis being able to see ALL types of past lives in incorrect. They cannot see their past lives in the apayas.

Does this mean if they can see lives in apayas then they are on the path without listening a word from the buddha/ noble associates? Of course not. Then, there is still something that they would still be missing. Perhaps it could be sakkaya ditthi as taryal mentioned. However, what i’m trying to show here is that anicca dukkha anatta is not enough, or i am missing something in my explanations of anicca dukkha anatta. 

[Jittananto]

The understanding of Tilakkhana is essential to attain Nibbāna. Without this understanding, it is impossible to attain it. An Anariya yogi outside of Sasana can rediscover the Dhamma and become a paccekabuddha also known as private Buddha.

• A paccekabuddha achieves the magga phala through his efforts but he is unable to establish a Sasana as a supreme Lord Buddha. They appear outside the Sasanas of a Supreme Buddha when human beings are ignorant of the Dhamma and mired in micchādiṭṭhi. Some yogis, thanks to their Kusulas, manage to rediscover the Dhamma, and even simple householders can become Paccekabuddhas by reflecting on the annica nature, eventually leaving lay life to become  Yogis. Several Paccekabuddhas can appear simultaneously in the world. They regroup and each discuss how they discovered the Dhamma. Paccekabuddhas master all jhanas, abhinnas, and Nirodha Samapatti, and are released from both ways (Ubhatovimutta). While paccekabuddhas can sometimes teach the Dhamma to specific individuals until they become arahants, these cases are extremely rare. They do not teach large numbers of people as Lord Gautama would, but they do teach how to lead a moral life, the dangers of Kāma ragā and how to obtain jhanas. Those who take care of them receive Kusulas. The majority of people of their time do not even know that they are arahants since the Dhamma is unknown. They surely take them as another type of yogis who reject sensual pleasures and teach moral precepts. To become a Paccekabuddha, one must aspire to be one and receive confirmation from Lord Buddha. Additionally, one must have developed the paramis to a much higher level than a simple arahant for two thousand asankheyya kappas. An example of an aspiration of a person who wants to become one is: “May I rediscover the Dhamma and achieve Nibbāna even if I am reborn at a time when it is unknown in this world.”

Here are examples of Suttas where Lord Buddha pays homage to them: Isigilisutta

These and other mighty ones awakened independently

Ete ca aññe ca mahānubhāvā,

enders of the conduit to rebirth—

Paccekabuddhā bhavanettikhīṇā;

honor these great seers who have slipped all chains,

Te sabbasaṅgātigate mahesī,

fully extinguished, limitless.”

Parinibbute vandatha appameyye”ti.

Paccekabuddhaapadāna 

The Sage of Vedeha, his body bent, asked

the Thus-Gone-One dwelling in Jetavana,

“Indeed there are those called the Lonely Buddhas;

through what causes do they become so, Wise One?”

Then spoke the Omniscient, Outstanding, Great Sage,

to lucky Ānanda with his honeyed voice,

“Who performed service among former Buddhas,

but didn’t get freed in their dispensations,

because that is the means to awaken, wise,

they with sharp knowing,through knowledge and power,

because of their wishes and also great strength,

reach the Awakening of Lonely Buddhas.

In every world, with the exception of me,

there is no equal for the Lonely Buddhas.

I will describe a piece of the excellent

character of those Buddhas, the Great Sages.”

Here is an example of when they teach a person until he becomes an arahant: Dhammapada Verse 290Attanopubbakamma Vatthu

Here are examples of Jataka where lay people became Paccekabuddhas:Darimukha Jātaka, Paniya Jātaka.

 

• Paccekabuddhas show that the Dhamma is eternal and only for the wise.  It doesn’t matter that these laws (Tilakkhana, Kamma) have been ignored by beings for hundreds and hundreds of billions of years, they are present. Only those who have developed the necessary paramis and Kusulas will be able to rediscover them even if Lord Buddha and his Sasana are not in this world. Those who do not understand them will continue to wander in this Samsara through its 31 illusions.

 

[Yash RS]

The missing part could be that they don’t know how to stop wanting of these worldly things.

They may have realised that sensuality is tormenting and can lead one to commit apayagami actions. But they still don’t know how to overcome its wanting. They suppress such cravings either by fear or by anariya jhana.

If someone doesn’t commit apayagami actions because it will lead him to suffer in future. That person is Not a Sotappana yet. He is just afraid of the consequences. A Sotappana does not want to commit any apayagami actions (except in extreme cases). The Sotappana doesn’t have such a thought towards anyone. As he has realised that to be committing apayagami actions, one must see value in the Sansara. 

People rape for sensual pleasure or in ego

People murder in rage or to possess someone’s wife, wealth, etc.

People steal because of value in objects.

People lie, do sexual misbehavior,etc.

All because they still feel intense value in such things.

A Sotappana has realised the Anicca nature of such things. That’s the difference.

That Yogi ,even though has seen the dangers of apayagami actions, doesn’t know the method to Permanently eradicate such desires. He is just afraid. He has seen sensuality is tormenting, but doesn’t know how to Permanently stop it’s cravings. That Yogi himself has seen all this by Suppressing Kama Raga! How would he ever realise to eradicate it permanently?

What he sees is just the following 

Do good deeds ,get good results 

Don’t do bad deeds, don’t get bad results 

They just don’t know how to stop committing these bad deeds automatically and permanently.

 

[Jittananto]

I’d like to emphasize one of the ten good punna kamma. When Lord Buddha says that one should respect the anariya yogis and give them offerings, there are two aspects to consider. First, they move away from kāma ragā and teach others how to do it, even if only temporarily. 99% of the sufferings of samsara are due to kāma ragā. Second, we do not know what results and paramis these yogis develop. Some of them may be bodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, or future arahants. When the Dhamma is unknown, some of them become paccekabuddhas. Since they are in a time when the Dhamma is unknown in the world, they can only teach how to move away from kāma ragā and develop jhanas. Of course, there are extremely rare cases where they teach and show magga phala to certain people. If we do not reach at least the sotāpanna stage in this Kappa, there are chances that we might be reborn in an empty Kappa of Lord Buddha. If we disrespect any of these yogis, during these times, and even if we do not know that they are paccekabuddhas we will have devastating Kammic consequences. We are fortunate because we are born in the Sasana of Lord Gautama and we can distinguish between the Dhamma and the worldly practice of the anariya yogis. The problem is that until the sotāpanna stage is reached there is a chance that we will be reborn at a time when we will not be able to make this distinction.

 Paṭhamanirayasaggasutta

 ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is an afterlife. There are such things as mother and father and beings that are reborn spontaneously. And some ascetics and brahmins are rightly comported and rightly practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their insight.’

‘atthi dinnaṁ, atthi yiṭṭhaṁ, atthi hutaṁ, atthi sukaṭadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko, atthi ayaṁ loko, atthi paro loko, atthi mātā, atthi pitā, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā sammaggatā sammāpaṭipannā ye imañca lokaṁ parañca lokaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedentī’ti.

• Let us not forget that there is always a deeper aspect to the recommendations of Lord Buddha. This is my opinion on this verse.

 

[pathfinder]

Yash: That Yogi ,even though has seen the dangers of apayagami actions, doesn’t know the method to Permanently eradicate such desires. He is just afraid. He has seen sensuality is tormenting, but doesn’t know how to Permanently stop it’s cravings. That Yogi himself has seen all this by Suppressing Kama Raga! How would he ever realise to eradicate it permanently?

Wow this is a wonderful point! You remind me that although they may somewhat grasp the ideas of suffering and the first noble truth, they are missing the second, third and fourth truths. Then there is still ignorance, ignorance that attachment leads to suffering.

Jittanato: Second, we do not know what results and paramis these yogis develop. Some of them may be bodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, or future arahants.

Yes this also makes sense, perhaps developing wisdom on anicca dukkha anatta can help them in the path in the future, though it may not start them on the eightfold path initially. And thank you for sending the links on Pacceka Buddhas as well.

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Jittananto

[Jittananto]

I forgot to mention there is an example of two puthujunas who will become paccekabuddhas in several Kappas. Lord Buddha predicted that Devadatta and King Ajatasattu would become Paccekabuddhas after they experienced the results of their negative Kamma in the Nirayas. Ajatasattu had the necessary qualities to become a sotāpanna after listening to a discourse of Lord Buddha. However, he killed his father, King Bimbisāra, which is considered an anantariya Kamma. A person who commits an anantariya Kamma is unable to achieve magga phala in the same lifetime where the action was committed. As a result, his Kusulas and Paramis were blocked.

Story of King Ajātasattu

Not long after the King’s Ajātasattu’s departure, the Buddha addressed the monks: “Monks, the King has destroyed his position. Monks, if King Ajātasattu had not killed his father, King Bimbisāra, the righteous monarch, who ruled his kingdom lawfully, the Sotāpatti Path-Wisdom would have occurred to him on the spot. (He would have become a sotāpanna-ariya.)”

The Buddha added: “Monks if he had not put his father to death, he would have attained the Sotāpatti-Path while seated here as he heard this Sāmañña-phala Sutta. But now, on account of his association with his wicked friend, his potential to attain that Path has been injured. Nevertheless, since he has taken refuge in the Triple Gem and since his refuge which is my threefold Teaching is supreme, he may be compared to a man who, after having been sentenced to death for murder, escapes the death penalty by getting good support and by giving just a handful of flowers (as a small fine). Although he ought to suffer in the Avīci hell for his heinous crime of parricide, he will suffer only in the Lohakumbhī hell after his death, for he has good support in my teaching. He will land in that hell and remain there for thirty thousand years and come up and stay on the surface for thirty thousand years. Then (after sixty thousand years) he will be released from Lohakumbhī Niraya.

(Herein Ajātasattu’s gain will be mentioned according to the Commentary. One may ask: “Had he benefited from his hearing of the Sāmañña-phala Sutta?”) The answer is: Yes, he had, and his benefit is enormous. Since the moment of his parricide, he had known no sleep, by day or by night, for there appeared to him signs of his woeful rebirth. Only after listening to the sweet and soothing Sāmaññaphala Sutta, he could sleep well whether it was day or night. And he lavishly honoured the Three Jewels. No other worldling had faith (pothujjanika-saddhā) that was equal to Ajātasattu’s. (Sound sleep, merit accrued from his honour done to the Triple Gem, possession of unique faith of a worldling, etc. were his gain that was realized in his present life. His afterlife benefit would be his attainment of Parinibbāna after becoming a Paccekabuddha, by the name of Vijitāvī.)

Story of Devadatta

The disciples bearing Devadatta laid down the couch on the bank of the pond near the Jetavana monastery and stepped into the pond to bathe. Devadatta sat up on the couch putting his two feet on the ground. Then his feet sank into the earth irresistibly. Down he went, the parts of his body sinking one after another, the ankle, the kneecap, the waist, the chest, and the neck, and the earth had gorged him up to the jaw-bones when he uttered the following verse:

Imehi aṭṭhīhi tam aggapuggalaṃ

devātidevaṃ naradammasārathim.

Samantacakkhuṃ satapunnalakkhaṇaṃ

pāṇehi Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ upemi.

I, Devadatta, on my deathbed, seek refuge in the Exalted One with these bones and this lingering life force. With an intelligent, noble, joyous mind motivated by the three noble root conditions (I seek refuge in the Omniscient Buddha, the Supreme Being in the world, the All-seeing Teacher who can discipline all worthy beings and who possesses the thirty-two splendid marks of an extraordinary man by His countless good deeds.

(It was because the Buddha knew Devadatta’s repentance that the Buddha ordained him. Even if he had not been a monk, he would certainly have committed the same heinous crime as a layman and later on he would not have been able to do the good deed that would contribute to his liberation from saṃsāra.

(The Buddha knew that after ordination Devadatta would do the two most evil deeds: causing the spilling of the Buddha’s blood and creating schism in the Sangha and that later on he would do the good deed for his release from saṃsāra. So the Buddha ordained him. Indeed, because of this good deed, Devadatta will be a Paccekabuddha by the name of Atthissara, after one hundred thousand kappas.)

 

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Yash RS

[pathfinder]

Thank you Jittananto. It is heartwarming to know that one is not truly helpless even after an apayagami by understanding the dhamma, even though it may take a long time for the effects to bear fruit!

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Jittananto

[Jittananto]

Another example is the Venerable Arahant Maha Mogallana, who, in a past life, killed his parents (anantariya Kamma). However, this did not prevent him from becoming one of the main disciples of Lord Buddha Gautama. This act brought consequences in his last life as an arahant; he was beaten to death by bandits. We have all committed anantariya Kamma and other akusalas in the infinite past. While it’s best to avoid such actions, until magga phala is achieved, nothing is certain in this infinite Samsarā. We are fortunate to be born human with all our mental capacities in the Sasana of Lord Gautama. Achieving magga phala is perfectly possible, here and now.

For those interested in learning more about Anantariya Kammas, please read this post:Ānantarika Kamma – Connection to Gandhabba

The Story of Venerable Mahā Moggallāna

The monks asked the Buddha, “But, venerable, what was the deed he committed in a previous state of existence?” In reply, the Buddha related his former deed in detail.

The story goes that once upon a time in the distant past a certain youth of a good family performed with his hand all of the household duties, such as pounding rice and cooking, and took care of his mother and father also. One day his mother and father said to him, “Son, you are wearing yourself out by performing all of the work both in the house and in the forest. We will fetch you home a certain young woman to be your wife.” The son replied, “Dear mother and father, there is no necessity for you to do anything of the sort. So long as you both shall live I will wait upon you with my hand.” Even though he refused to listen to their suggestion, they repeated their request time and again, and finally brought him home a young woman to be his wife.

For a few days only she waited upon his mother and father. After those few days had passed, she was unable even to bear the sight of them and said to her husband with a great show of indignation, “I can’t live any longer in the same house with your mother and father.” But he paid no attention to what she said. So one day, when he was out of the house, she took bits of clay and bark and scum of rice gruel and scattered them here and there about the house. When her husband returned and asked her what it meant, she said, “This is what your blind old parents have done; they go about littering up the entire house; I can’t live in the same place with them any longer.” Thus did she speak again and again. The result was that finally even a being so distinguished as he, a being who had fulfilled the Perfection, broke with his mother and father.

“Never mind,” said the husband, I shall find some way of dealing with them properly.” So when he had given them food, he said to them, “Dear mother and father, in such and such a place live kinsfolk of yours who desire you to visit them; let us go thither.” And assisting them to enter a carriage, he set out with them. When he reached the depths of the forest, he said to his father, “Dear father, hold these reins; the oxen know the track so well that they will go without guidance; this is a place where thieves lie in wait for travellers; I am going to descend from the carriage.” And giving the reins into the hands of his father, he descended from the carriage and made his way into the forest.

As he did so, he began to make a noise, increasing the volume of the noise until it sounded as if a band of thieves were about to make an attack. When his mother and father heard the noise, they thought to themselves, “A band of thieves is about to attack us.” Therefore they said to their son, “Son, we are old people; save yourself, and pay no attention to us.” But even as his mother and father cried out thus, the son, yelling the thieves’ yell, beat them killed them and threw their bodies into the forest. Having so done, he returned home.

When the Buddha had related the foregoing story of Venerable Moggallāna’s misdeed in a previous state of existence, he said, “Monks, because Venerable Moggallāna committed so monstrous a sin, he suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in hell; and thereafter, because the fruit of his evil deed was not yet exhausted, in a hundred successive existences he was beaten and pounded to pieces in like manner and so met death. Therefore the manner of death which Venerable Moggallāna suffered was in exact conformity with his misdeed in a previous state of existence. Likewise, the five hundred heretics who with the five hundred thieves offended against my son who had committed no offence against them, suffered precisely that form of death which they deserved. For he that offends against the offenseless, incurs misfortune and loss through ten circumstances.”

The 5 bad Anantariya Kammas are:

1. Killing one’s father

2. Killing one’s mother

3. Killing an arahant

4. Physically injuring a Lord Buddha (A Lord Buddha cannot be killed)

5. Causing division in the community of monks (Sangha)

• There are also good Anantariya Kammas, such as maintaining jhanas or arupavacara samapatti until one’s death and attaining magga phala.

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pathfinder, Yash RS

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