[Johnny_Lim]

Under point #1…

“One who has not understood the First Noble Truth is willingly generating (abhi) sankhāra via, “avijjā paccayā sankhāra”…”

In the most absolute sense, is the Ariyan Dukkha Sacca referring to rebirth suffering OR the mental vexation that entails when a person’s sense faculties take in inputs from the various external sense objects, and consequently delighting in the this and that, delighting in the here and now? I tend to think it is the latter because the Buddha said before that his Dhamma is Sanditthiko (to be seen here and now), Akaliko (not delayed in time). Certainly the Buddha’s Dhamma can appeal to and also help people who are not believers of rebirth to eradicate pavutti dukkha. So, if someone really understands the Ariyan Dukka Sacca, he can see how delighting in the this and that, delighting in the here and now can only bring upon suffering evident in this very life. If I remember correctly, the Buddha also mentioned that he is not inclined to exist for even a thought moment. Which seems to imply that the processing of sense inputs (which in this case is the five aggregates without the clinging of course!) is really a burden even for a fully enlightened being.

[Lal]

The post in question is: “Viññāna and Sankhāra – Connection to Paticca Samuppāda“.

Johnny asked: “In the most absolute sense, is the Ariyan Dukkha Sacca referring to rebirth suffering OR the mental vexation that entails when a person’s sense faculties take in inputs from the various external sense objects, and consequently delighting in the this and that, delighting in the here and now? ”

The main achievement is eliminating suffering in the rebirth process.
– But any suffering due to “mental vexation” even during this life is stopped for an Arahant.
– What remains for this life for an Arahant is any PHYSICAL suffering (injuries, sicknesses, etc) that arise due to kamma vipaka.
– Of course, ALL SUFFERING is stopped at the death of an Arahant (Parinibbana).

Johnny wrote: ” the Buddha said before that his Dhamma is Sanditthiko (to be seen here and now), Akaliko (not delayed in time). ”
– Dhamma CAN BE seen in this lfe and Arahanthood IS attained in this life. Even though relatively insignificant physical suffering due to kamma vipaka remain for an Arahant, that is negligible due to suffering that could be encountered in future births for billions of years to come.
– “Akalika” DOES NOT mean “not delayed in time”. It means that Buddha Dhamma DOES NOT CHANGE with time. Whether there is a Buddha in the world or not, the laws of nature as described by Buddha Dhamma are valid and enforced by Nature. It is just that no one would know about them in the absence of a Buddha Sasana.

P.S. “Sanditthika” (“San” + “ditthika” or “”seeing defilements”) — and removing those defilements — starts at the Sotapanna Anugami stage, and completed at the Arahant stage; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)” and related posts.

[Johnny_Lim]

Many thanks, Lal, for the insightful reply.

[Akvan]

Hi Johnny,

I think you have a point. The Buddha said that the Dhamma is something completely unknown to anyone at that time. But people at that time had seen the suffering in the re-birth process (i.e. the hell worlds, animal realms etc.). So the dukkha sachcha cannot simply be the suffering in the re-birth process but something a bit more subtle that no one could fathom. Hence the term sachcha, without simply saying dukkha.

I guess different people will understand it in different ways. Some would see this subtle sachcha better through the re-birth process while others will understand it through the daily life (without having to look at the rebirth process).

Also this dukkha sachcha is more the mental suffering than the pure physical suffering. This mental suffering is something that most will not see. A Buddha doesn’t need come forward to explain about physical suffering. Any human knows what the physical suffering is. So dukkha sachcha is a more subtle, but very important concept.

I think Lal has explained this fact – that there is a difference between dukkha and dukkha sachcha – in detail in many posts as well.

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Akvan,

You mentioned: “The Buddha said that the Dhamma is something completely unknown to anyone at that time. But people at that time had seen the suffering in the re-birth process…”

That’s exactly my sentiment. Ancient yogis before the Buddha were already trying to rid themselves from the rebirth process. So, it cannot be a new concept to them. Without coming across the Buddha Dhamma, one can never come to the realisation that the things we do to gratify this illusive self is indeed the opening of the pandora’s box to incessant suffering. We would never have figured out on our own the way to end this madness is actually counter-intuitive to our defiled primal nature. Even the highest external sect yogi who still has a modicum of notion – “I can. Therefore I am.” is not spared from going round in sansara.

[Lal]

Akvan wrote: “The Buddha said that the Dhamma is something completely unknown to anyone at that time. But people at that time had seen the suffering in the re-birth process (i.e. the hell worlds, animal realms etc.). So the dukkha sachcha cannot simply be the suffering in the re-birth process but something a bit more subtle that no one could fathom.”

This is a very dangerous idea, but it is a very common idea. This is why we have been trapped in this rebirth process for so long.

Here are some key points to think about:
1. The most fundamental concept in Buddha Dhamma is “bhava” + “uddha” or “stopping future bhava (existences) from arising”. So, yes, that is what the Buddha taught: How to stop the rebirth process and to end ANY and ALL suffering.
– The word “Buddha” itself comes from “bhava” + “uddha”, meaning a Buddha is the one who finds the way to stop bhava (and jati) from arising and to attain Nibbana (end of suffering).

2. Please carefully read the first sutta of the Buddha: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. He said, “ayam antima jati, nattidani punabbhavo” or “this is my last birth, no more rebirths for me”.

3. He told bhikkhus, “I teach you how to END the suffering”. Suffering cannot be completely stopped from arising as long as one is in the rebirth process.

4. The First Noble Truth is not just that “there is unbearable suffering in the apayas”. Of course, many ancient yogis knew that, and saw that for themselves. But they could not figure out HOW to stop those births in the apayas. Yogis like Alara Kalama thought cultivating jhanas and getting a birth in a brahma realm will keep one away from the apayas. They thought that was the “end of suffering”.

5. If one understand the First Noble Truth, then one WILL know that there is suffering in all 31 realms. Any bhava (and jati) ends up in suffering. Even in deva and brahma realms, one may live without much suffering for most of those lives, but it INEVITABLY comes back in spades at the end. When a deva is getting close to death, the beautiful body starts decaying, and it becomes clear that the “end is near”. That is the real suffering, because that deva would not know whether the next birth in the apayas.

6. This becomes clear when one carefully looks at Paticca Samuppada: It starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara” and ends with, “jati paccaya jara, marana, ..”. As long as one generates sankhara (whether it is apunnabhisankhara, punnabhisankhara, or anenjabhi sankhara), one WILL end up with suffering.
– Apunnabhisankhara lead to rebirth in the apayas.
– Punnabhisankhara lead to rebirth in the human, deva, and rupavacara brahma realms.
– Anenjhabhi sankhara lead to rebirths in the arupavacara brahma realms.

– “Avijja paccaya sankhara” include all three kinds of sankhara.
– Suffering CANNOT be ENDED without SEEING the futility of staying in the rebirth process.
– In other words, NO BIRTH in the 31 realms can be maintained to one’s satisfaction. ANY birth will end up in suffering, at least the end (death), where the suffering is most felt. That is called anicca nature.

(P.S. By the way, this is why the Buddha said: “sabbe sankhara anicca” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha“).

7. When one understands the First Noble Truth, one would have understood OTHER THREE Noble Truths too: The causes of suffering (any kind of sankhara), end of suffering is the same as stopping the causes for suffering, and the way to achieve that.
– This is why it is said that the First Noble Truth is not just about KNOWING that there is suffering. One must understand HOW that suffering arises due to apunnabhisankhara, punnabhisankhara, and anenjabhisankhara.
– Then one would realize the anicca nature: that as long as one is in the rebirth process, one will NEVER be able to PERMANENTLY remove future suffering.

I hope Johnny can now see the problem with his statement: ““The Buddha said that the Dhamma is something completely unknown to anyone at that time. But people at that time had seen the suffering in the re-birth process…”.

– Just KNOWING that suffering exists in the rebirth process is not enough. One needs to understand Paticca Samuppada and realizes HOW that suffering ARISES due to avijja and tanha (craving for worldly things).
– P.S. All our actions, speech, and thoughts are generated via sankhara, and thus generate kammic energy (and strongest of those lead to future rebirths); this is what was discussed in the post in question: “Viññāna and Sankhāra – Connection to Paticca Samuppāda“.
– And one cannot get rid of tanha until one realizes the unfruitful nature of ALL realms, the anicca nature. One CANNOT maintain any existence in ANY realm. All existences (bhava) eventually lead to suffering.

[Tobias G]

Is there a PS sequence for functional behavior (kriya)?
e.g. at work I have to think and take decisions. That also requires sankhara, vinnana, namarupa (visuals, concepts), phassa, vedana, neutral tanha, neutral upadana …leading to occupational bhava…jati..
Thus ingredients of a PS cycle are involved.

[Lal]

Tobias asked: “Is there a PS sequence for functional behavior (kriya)?”

Normally, we deal with PS cycles that either lead to suffering (akusala-mula PS) or that lead to the stopping of future suffering (kusala-mula PS).
– The first kind starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara” and the second kind starts with “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara.”

But there are PS processes called Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda, see, “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna.”
– These describe kamma vipaka.
– However, it seems that these also do not include just “neutral actions.” Such neutral actions do not lead to suffering or the cesation of suffering.

Another way to look at this is the following. In some suttas, like Upādā­na­pari­pa­vat­ta Sutta (SN 22.56), saṅkhārā are DEFINED as:
“Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? Chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā—rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandha­sañ­cetanā, rasasañcetanā, ­phoṭṭhab­ba­sañ­cetanā, dhamma­sañ­cetanā. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā…”
– Therefore, saṅkhārā (that we are concerned with) arise due to sañcetanā (“san” + “cetana”).
– There is a connection to “san”, see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra).”

[Author]

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