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In the post – Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception :
- Any procedure to remove the live gandhabba after this “real conception” is equivalent to killing a human. The exact time of the removal procedure does not matter. It could be a month before the birth of the baby or just a day after the gandhabba came into the womb.
I am a little conflicted on the above statement. How can we say that killing an embryo, which is an entity that isn’t necessarily aware of its existence (or at least can’t feel pain when removed) is equivalent to killing a grown human? Carrying a fetus in a womb for 9 months is a sheer burden and giving birth not only puts the baby’s but also the mother’s life at risk. Not to mention the fact that raising a child isn’t easy, especially nowadays. Isn’t harming oneself also an apunna kamma and discouraged?
If a female accidentally becomes pregnant, should she be encouraged to forcefully bear the burden out of fear of the contrary being “immoral”? Additionally, how to view cases like a 12 year old girl being pregnant due to rape, for example? If I was a doctor, I don’t think there’s a chance I’d let her take the risk of giving birth.
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Until a gandhabba merges with it, a zygote (produced by an egg and a sperm) is “lifeless.”
- However, with the merging of a gandhabba, that zygote becomes alive—as alive as you and me.
- A gandhabba has a hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) and five pasada rupa. That is the essence of a “living being.”
- The mind of the gandhabba is in the “bhavanga” state until the baby’s brain is developed and it can receive sensory inputs. Even inside the womb, it starts receiving sensory inputs gradually as the brain develops.
- Consider someone becoming unconscious for a few minutes. That person is not aware of anything, and no thoughts arise. Can we say that the person is not alive during that time? What determines “life” is the existence of a hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) and five pasada rupa.
Taryal asked: “If a female accidentally becomes pregnant, should she be encouraged to forcefully bear the burden out of fear of the contrary being “immoral”? Additionally, how to view cases like a 12 year old girl being pregnant due to rape, for example? If I was a doctor, I don’t think there’s a chance I’d let her take the risk of giving birth.”
- That is a separate issue. Either way, those are hard and agonizing decisions. That is why life is suffering.
- That child did not get pregnant without a cause. It is a kamma vipaka. How one handles a kamma vipaka is a separate issue.
- Why would one come down with cancer (even if they took care of their health all their lives) or get into a car accident (even though it is not their fault)? There are an uncountable number of examples. Those are possible because we are born with this physical body.
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“However, with the merging of a gandhabba, that zygote becomes alive—as alive as you and me.“
But it doesn’t have a brain yet and can’t receive any sensory input. From the perspective of those who choose to abort, it is just a microscopic lump of cells that knows nothing about the world, including itself. With that being said, will their minds release javana citta equivalent to that of killing a human with well defined organs and nervous system?
Dr. Lal wrote:
- That is a separate issue. Either way, those are hard and agonizing decisions. That is why life is suffering.
- That child did not get pregnant without a cause. It is a kamma vipaka. How one handles a kamma vipaka is a separate issue.
- Why would one come down with cancer (even if they took care of their health all their lives) or get into a car accident (even though it is not their fault)? There are an uncountable number of examples. Those are possible because we are born with this physical body.
That’s the thing. Killing the embryo would mean forcefully removing the gandhabba but letting a woman/child face the burden of unwanted pregnancy would also be immoral. In all honesty, if I had to deal with something like this, I would take the former route. This is why I am typically against abortion ban. One’s vipaka is one’s own responsibility and we can get into situations where we have to commit acts that can be akusala. Killing someone invasive to save others would be another example.
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When one is infected with parasites, it’d be advised to take medicine to kill them too. Even if a tapeworm may not be on par with a human life, it is a sentient being that wants to live. I know about pet owners who decided to put down their pets because they were suffering from disease. The “intention” of aborting a human embryo in an unwanted pregnancy would be to protect the mother’s life & well-being, AND the baby from future suffering. So I remain unconvinced that their minds will release javana citta equivalent to the strength of “murdering” a human that is already living independent of their mother. Regardless, it is safe to say that it is not possible to live in this world without harming other beings, including humans.
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Yes. Kamma generation is a tricky subject.
- I suggest reading the posts “How to Evaluate Weights of Different Kamma“ and “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“
- We can discuss further after that.
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“When one is infected with parasites, it’d be advised to take medicine to kill them, too”—the value of worms is much less in karmic terms, and being human is extremely rare, the same with pets. As Buddha taught us, “It’s not the way we like it.” You can not even out everything because you want something to be according to your logic. You are trying to bend it with tunnel vision of ignorance. Buddha explained how it is in the big picture, if you see the big picture it’s clear that it is like that.
You put extreme examples but it does not take away that the cell is a living being, just because it does not look like that to you it does not mean it is not. If you see a small sapling of the tree, it is still a tree even if it has no branches or it does not look like it.
In extreme examples, those are very unfortunate for people who experience them and we understand that but emotionally charged arguments will not make truth non-truth. If people value mundane life they will abort or make any sacrifices on all levels of life for the sake of an illusionary sense of pleasure. If you are put in a bad situation you either make it worse for the future or somehow manage it, normal people have no option of Dhamma so obviously they generate more kamma with wrongdoings.
Your arguments are just questions of value. Puthujjana will always choose the option of a sense of pleasure under false views to the extreme version of sacrificing everything for the outcome of comfort and not having problems. Ariya will always value Nibbana even if it costs him his life because in the long term, you will be free permanently from sansara.
I think Vinaya is very good for measuring potential wrongdoings and their weight even if you are not a monk.
People need to understand that society and the way people act are based on distorted sanna so obviously, there will be shortcomings one way or another even if we have a pretty developed society in terms of material-objective truths that help up advance in terms of science and technology, but without Dhamma it can turn wrong way easily.
Having someone with an understanding of Dhamma + strong 4th jhana you could verify most things like that by yourself and experience of it.
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Taryal wrote: “So I remain unconvinced that their minds will release javana citta equivalent to the strength of “murdering” a human that is already living independent of their mother.”
- That statement is correct. When I wrote my comment, I thought you had written the opposite. That is why I recommended those two posts, which also convey the same idea that you did. Taking a human life is a billion-fold worse than killing an animal. Along the same line, taking the life of an Arahant (which is an anantariya kamma) is a billion-fold worse than killing an average human.
- Of course, we must refrain from taking any life.
P.S. Probably Christian read Taryal’s comment the same way I did.
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