[pathfinder]

“True Happiness Is the Absence of Suffering“

‘Attaining Nibbāna (Arahanthood) Involves Uncovering the Hidden “Pure Mind”

8. Therefore, the “suffering-free” status of a mind is within us all. It has been thoroughly covered with many layers of defilements in our long saṁsāric journey. All we need to do is to uncover that “pure mind.”’

From here my understanding is that we all started out with a suffering free, “pure mind”. Can we assume that that Nibbana will be the same? In that case, it raises more questions. Why is it that there will be no suffering after Nibbana but there arises suffering from this pure mind? What is the cause of the pure mind to start being defiled, and can it also apply to Nibbana?

[Lal]

This is a deep issue.

• It is impossible to figure out WHEN any given mind got covered with defilements. 
• The Buddha declared that tracing back to such an instance is impossible. Right after attaining the Buddhahood, he recalled his past lives at an unimaginably high rate for a long time (probably a few days? I don’t remember where that account is in the Tipitaka). But he said he could not find a “beginning.”
• The verse, “Anamataggoyaṁ, bhikkhave, saṁsāro,” OR “Bhikkhus, this rebirth process has no known beginning” appears in several suttas. See, for example, “Tiṇakaṭṭha Sutta (SN 15.1).”

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[pathfinder]

Thank you Lal. I understand that it is not possible to trace back. But then there is the next question of : When we attain nibbana, will it be possible for the mind to become eventually defiled, like how it was pure and become defiled?

[Lal]

No. That will not happen because once an Arahant dies (Parinibbana), he/she will be separated entirely from the world of 31 realms. 

• There is no way to get another birth anywhere within “this world.”
• One would be “completely released” from any future suffering!
• As we have discussed (for anyone without at least the Sotapanna stage of Nibbana), one is not free of rebirths in the suffering-filled four lowest realms, even though one can be born in the “higher realms” with much less suffering on and off.

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[Lal]

The following comment is from y not:

Going with what the Buddha says:

 

Sansara has no (traceable) beginning;  but also, avijja too has no (traceable) beginning: “A first beginning of ignorance cannot be conceived, (of which it can be said), ‘Before that, there was no ignorance and it came to be after”. So there can be no question as to the cause of its arising.

 

The Path eliminates the defilements.  If there were no Nibbana, it would lead to a suffering -free state, which would equate

with a neutral state only.  In  the mundane sense, the elimination of suffering in itself and by itself  does not constitute happiness.  It only leads to it.  But in the case of Nibbana, since Nibbana is there already, the Pure Mind ( covered with raga, dvesha and moha), thus freed, automatically attains Nibbana, becomes Nibbana, ‘becomes’ what it intrinsically is.

 

Compare:  Someone is in pain, in time recovers from pain, and later enjoys a favourite activity, physical or mental.  The first is suffering, the second relief and the third happiness.  Here, recovery from pain is not the happiness, but is essential for happiness to follow. There can be no happiness where there is pain.  With Nibbana, the attainment of happiness goes hand-in -hand with the elimination of suffering – there is no need to go in search of anything, for Nibbana is the Pure Mind itself shorn of defilements.

 

Pathfinder:  The pure mind never became defiled.  I has always been defiled. And there can be no going back ‘to getting defiled’

after Nibbana. Will anyone want to keep an item of food that made him sick in the fridge for later use?

 

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[pathfinder]

Thank you for your respones

Y Not: “The first is suffering, the second relief and the third happiness.  Here, recovery from pain is not the happiness, but is essential for happiness to follow. There can be no happiness where there is pain. ”

Actually this brings up another query i have, which is “is there happiness in Nibbāna?” I have felt the cooling down, eg less agitated, less stress when unfortunate circumstances happen, less vexed with less desires, but i don’t feel “happier”, just “less unhappy”.

To give a crude elaboration, let’s say a normal person’s happiness is at -20 because there is a lot of suffering, it will work towards 0 with less suffering, that’s what i’m feeling now. “happiness” implies that it can go from 0 to a positive number, eg 10, 20. I have heard this word used by several monks, “finding true happiness”. Is it true that there is more after “absence of suffering?”

[Lal]

Pathfinder: “Actually, this brings up another query I have: “Is there happiness in Nibbāna?”

Nibbana does not have anything that is associated with “this world of 31 realms.” Trees, water, mountains, or even thoughts or feelings (like happiness) are absent in Nibbana.

• It may be hard to grasp this initially. But the Buddha, with Paticca Samuppada, thoroughly explained that if any of those entities are present, they must come into existence due to root causes (greed, hate, ignorance) and conditions.
• Anything that comes into existence via root causes (greed, hate, ignorance) and conditions is impermanent (that is why any existence, including Deva or Brahma births, will not lead to “permanent removal of suffering”); but it is also more than impermanence (all such existence are of the anicca nature). 
• “Nibbana sukha” is NOT  a feeling. It is the absence of suffering. The closest analogy is the following: Suppose someone has had a chronic headache from birth. One day, it is cured, and he feels a great relief. That relief was not a new vedana but the absence of “dukkha vedana.”

See “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World”

• More posts in “Nibbāna.”

[pathfinder]

Thank you, i had the belief that the Nibbana can be extrapolated from niramisa sukha. 

I guess it is like someone explaining colours to a blind person. The blind person can only very very minutely grasp what colours are, eg “imagine a colour when you’re angry, that is red”. But the blind person can never comprehend the concept of colours fully.

[Lal]

Yes, niramisa sukha is felt on the way to Nibbana.

• However, a living Arahant may feel “dukkha vedana” due to the physical body born with. Such vedana can arise from injuries or sicknesses.

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