Post on “Saññā Gives Rise to Most of the Vedanā We Experience”

  • This topic has 12 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 5 months ago by Lal.
Viewing 12 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #50687
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Saññā Gives Rise to Most of the Vedanā We Experience

      10. Some types of “saññā” naturally form in a growing human baby. Generating those types of “saññā” for sights, sounds, tastes, and smells happens naturally because human bodies are “formed” via Paṭicca Samuppāda to “enjoy certain types of sensory inputs.”

      I think this types of saññā can be called bahidda saññā. And the other types of saññā can be called ajjhatta saññā. Would it be wrong if I say those concepts like this way?

    • #50692
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “I think this types of saññā can be called bahidda saññā.”

      • Yes. That is exactly right.
      • Bahidda” comes from “bahira” + “iddha,” where “bahira” is external and “iddha” means “get established.” Note that “iddhi” is different and means “supernormal powers.”
      • Thus, “bahidda sanna” is a sanna that arises due to external sensory inputs and automatically “established” or ‘manifested’  in a sentient being. Kama sanna (like the taste of food or the beauty of a woman) is built into our human bodies. They give rise to “mind-made vedana” or “samphassa-ja-vedana.”
      • Puthujjana (or even a Sotapanna) may attach to such “mind-made vedana” because they do not understand that they are not “real” at a deeper level. Once that mechanism is understood, one realizes that one has been “tricked” by nature!

      The “bahidda sanna” evolves into “ajjhatta sanna” for all those who have not fully grasped the above.

      • Here “ajjhatta” comes from “ajjha” + “atta” where “ajjha” means “oneself” and “atta” means “beneficial/meaningful.” 
      • Those below the Anagami stage (who have not fully grasped how “bahidda sanna” arises, would automatically be attached to that “bahidda sanna,” thinking it would benefit oneself.
      • That is what I tried to explain in that post. Yes. You seem to have gotten the idea!

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #50696
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

    • #50757
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Then, can sankhara and abhisankhara be respectively referred to as bahidda sankhara and ajjhatta sankhara?

    • #50763
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. That is a good point. 

      • All five entities in pancupadanakkhandha (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) are of 11 types: “Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho.” There, “ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā” refers to the ajjhatta rupa and bahidda rupa. The same applies to the other four entities. All those ajjhatta and bahidda entities occur in the ajjhatta and bahiddha stages at the beginning of a sensory attachment process.
      • See “Khandha Sutta (SN 22.48).”
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #50765
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Furthermore, can bahiddha rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana be referred to as pancakkhandha, and, in the same way, can ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana be referred to as pancupadanakkhanda?

    • #50800
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      It seems that this thread might have been missed. I worry that too many questions might inconvenience you. However, if it’s not too much trouble, could you please respond?

    • #50803
      Lal
      Keymaster

      OK. Yes. It is fine to remind me if I miss to address a comment.

      No. The “pure pancakkhandha” can arise only when an Arahant is in Arahant phala samapatti

      • That is only when “distorted sanna” does not arise even in an Arahant.
      • Even though “distorted sanna” does not have raga, dosa, or moha, it still does not depict the “real nature.”
    • #50809
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I thought of providing a bit more information to make things clear. 

      The question was: “Furthermore, can bahiddha rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana be referred to as pancakkhandha, and, in the same way, can ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana be referred to as pancupadanakkhanda?”

      • The  “pure pancakkhandha” would have no defilements (raga, dosa, moha) and also no “distortions.” That is the same as the “pabhassara citta” we discussed.
      • That arises for the first time when one attains the Arahant phala.
      • After attaining the Arahant phala, the mind returns to the “kama dhatu” stage with uppatti bhavanga that one was born with.
      • Some Arahants can get back to the “Arahant phala citta” or “pabhassara citta,” at later times, which is called “Arahant phala samapatti.” 

      Unless an Arahant is in a jhana or Arahant phala samapatti, their mind is in the uppatti bhavanga they were born with.

      • Then, upon getting a sensory input, their minds also receive the “kama sanna” associated with any human uppatti bhavanga. That is the “bahidda vinnana” state (with the corresponding “distorted sanna” and the rupa, which is also “distorted” per that sanna.) That is why it is not the same as “pure pancakkhandha.
      • However, Arahant‘s mind will not get to the next stage of “ajjhatta vinnana” because it will not attach to the “distorted sanna” or specifically “distorted kama sanna” in this case.
      • For a puthujjana, the “ajjhatta vinnana” is only the starting point of mind contamination. It can get further defiled within a fraction of a second, depending on the “kama gati” present at that time. It can go through several stages of contamination before it becomes “vinnana upadanakkhandha” (which is simply referred to as “vinnana” in most suttas.)

      That contamination process is discussed in the following posts: 

      Those posts are in the section: “Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #50817
      cubibobi
      Participant

      Such educational discussion!

      — Under #50692, Lal wrote:
      “Puthujjana (or even a Sotapanna) may attach to such “mind-made vedana” because they do not understand that they are not “real” at a deeper level.”

      So, attachment is really attachment to a vedana, and I can see that via paticca samuppada (the niddesa version):

      salayatana paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana, samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha

       

      — also under #50692
      “Those below the Anagami stage (who have not fully grasped how “bahidda sanna” arises, would automatically be attached to that “bahidda sanna,” thinking it would benefit oneself.”

      Do we also attach to sanna? I thought the flow would be:

      sanna –> vedana –> tanha

      Also, we discussed “distorted sanna”. If we can make up a phrase, can we call “distorted sanna” “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?

      Best,
      Lang

    • #50819
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Lang wrote: 

      “So, attachment is really attachment to a vedana, and I can see that via paticca samuppada (the niddesa version):

      salayatana paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana, samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha …”

      • Yes. Attachment is to samphassa-ja-vedana.” I highlighted that to make it clear.

      ____

      Lang asked: 

      “Do we also attach to sanna? I thought the flow would be:

      sanna –> vedana –> tanha

      Also, we discussed “distorted sanna”. If we can make up a phrase, can we call “distorted sanna” “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?”

      • What you wrote, “sanna –> vedana –> tanha” can be written as “distorted sanna –> samphassa-ja-vedana –> tanha”
      • In the suttas just “sanna” appears. Those who have not broken the corresponding samyojana/anusaya ALWAYS attach to the “samphassa-ja-vedana” generated by that “distorted sanna.” I like to use “distorted sanna” to emphasize that it is not real. However, it is built into our bodies via Paticca Samuppada; thus, it feels real!
    • #50820
      cubibobi
      Participant

      Thank you, Lal.

      So, we don’t attach to “distorted sanna“, but to samphassa-ja-vedana right? Thus,

      “distorted sanna –> samphassa-ja-vedana –> tanha

      There is always the samphassa-ja-vedana in between, and not

      “distorted sanna” –> tanha

       

      I must say I am still digesting the concept of “distorted sanna” (working my way through slowly), so, about my other question: can we call it “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?

    • #50823
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Lang asked: “So, we don’t attach to “distorted sanna“, but to samphassa-ja-vedana right?”

      • Yes. I had not expressed this correctly in my initial response. I just revised it to make it clear.
      • samphassa-ja-vedana” arises due to “distorted sanna”  for those who have not broken the corresponding samyojana/anusaya.

      Lang asked: “I must say I am still digesting the concept of “distorted sanna” (working my way through slowly), so, about my other question: can we call it “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?”

      • Yes. You could say that. Anyone born with a human body will have the “kama sanna” common to all of us: Sugar or a nice meal tastes good, feces smells bad while a rose smells good, there are handsome men and beautiful women, etc. 
Viewing 12 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.