June 24, 2020 at 6:00 am #31198Tobias GParticipant
Please see page 11 of the Waharaka Thero discourse (pdf). There it is stated that reading is not enough to attain sotapatti. Was that said by Waharaka Thero? As far as I know we could not find a Tipitaka reference for that. Can someone clarify this?
Another way to state:
▪ Association with “sappurisa (sath + purisa or “Noble friend”, i.e., an Ariya)”,
sometimes called a “Kalyana Mitta.
▪ Listening to Dhamma discourses (while reading is enough to get to
Sotāpanna Anugami stage, listening is necessary to attain the
▪ Act with yoniso manasikāra (basic idea of anicca, dukkha, anatta and Paṭicca
▪ Dhammanudhamma patipadā (following the Noble Path in accordance with that
new “vision”, which is beyond the mundane path)
June 24, 2020 at 6:15 am #31200
This has been discussed under a couple of topics in the forum.
Here is one:
“Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”
The main conclusions are:
1. The Sotapanna Anugami stage can be reached by reading/listening.
2. The Sotapanna phala moment (transition from a Sotapanna Anugami to a Sotapanna) happens while listening to a discourse by a Noble Person (Ariya).
– “Saddamma savana” or “listening to the correct Dhamma” is what is given as a requirement in the Tipitaka.
– Of course, reading was not widely available at the time of the Buddha.
June 24, 2020 at 1:41 pm #31201cubibobiParticipant
Another wonderful post on Sakkāya Diṭṭhi, very timely for those of us working toward sotapanna anugami.
Just curious: for those with more experience on weakening Sakkāya Diṭṭhi, does it happen more “outside in” or “inside out”?
By “outside in”, I’m thinking of a sequence like:
Material possessions (cars, houses) –> non material possessions (social status, fame) –> relationships (friends, family members) –> body and mind (culmination)
Or does it happen more “inside out”, losing Sakkāya Diṭṭhi with body and mind, and external things are then taken care of.
June 24, 2020 at 5:09 pm #31202
Good Question, Lang.
As we discussed in that post, one only loses the wrong VIEW of sakkaya ditthi first.
– The tendency to feel and perceive sensory pleasures is likely to be still there even after attaining the Sotapanna phala moment.
That is why a Sotapanna (or a Sotapanna Anugami) is free only from the apayas.
– Bonds to the kama loka are still there (even though less).
– Of course, those bonds start to WEAKEN even from the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
A Sakadagami would not care to OWN material things (that provide sense pleasures) but would still like to enjoy them.
– It is only an Anagami who would not care for any sensory pleasure.
So, I guess we can call it an “inside out” process. But losing cravings for material things also happen gradually. Some lose more than others.
– As the Waharaka Thero had explained in the recently transcribed discourse, a Sotapanna would lose a HUGE amount of defilements (that one may have not even been aware of). An average human would have an enormous amount of hidden defilements (mostly wrong views) as anusaya.
– That is what is lost mostly at the Sotapanna stage, starting at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
I am still revising and expanding that first youtube video. I hope to post the full document within a few days.
June 24, 2020 at 7:47 pm #31203cubibobiParticipant
Thank you, Lal, and one more question.
Would it be practical to use Sakkāya Diṭṭhi as a kammatthāna for meditation? For example, to notice when it is strong.
For us puthujjana, we know that Sakkāya Diṭṭhi is there, but it doesn’t seem to be active 24/7. There were times when we look at things as just events, and there was no view of “me” and “mine” in them (maybe it was anusaya at that moment).
Would it be fruitful to develop the habit of “catching” ourselves with Sakkāya Diṭṭhi and relinquish it?
June 24, 2020 at 9:05 pm #31204
To get rid of sakkaya ditthi, one needs to see the “anicca nature”.
– One way is to think about whether we can keep can anything as we like in the long term.
Can we keep our bodies the way we like?
Can we get rebirths the way we would like?
The key is to look at the big picture of the process of rebirths within 31 realms.
– I would suggest reading the posts on the “Five Aggregates” that we have covered recently:
July 1, 2020 at 5:53 am #31262
The following post is from Tobias:
Please see the Waharaka Thero discourse (pdf):
“10:13 Asava means our expectations. They remain hidden as anusaya and come to
the surface (based on strong arammana) as asava…”
That is vice versa to the explanation in the post Āsava, Anusaya, and Gati (Gathi):
Āsava are indeed “mental fermentations” that lie deep down in us. That is comparable to mud sitting at the bottom of a glass of water.
If that glass of water is disturbed with a straw, then some of that mud comes to the surface. That is like anusaya bubbling up when we are disturbed by a strong sense event. When that happens, we display our real character/habits or gati (gati).
Which one is correct?
July 1, 2020 at 6:46 am #31266
You are right, Tobias.
– Anusaya are the “hidden defilements>”
– They can come to the surface as asava when triggered by an arammana (sensory input) matching that anusaya.
I just revised the post, “Āsava, Anusaya, and Gati (Gathi)”
Hopefully, everything is consistent now. Thanks for pointing that out.
July 1, 2020 at 8:09 am #31267Tobias GParticipant
I think #11 is still wrong in the post Āsava, Anusaya, and Gati (Gathi).
“The seven types of anusaya can give rise to four types of āsava.
Ditthānusaya and vicikiccānusaya arise from ditthāsava.
Kāmarāgaanusaya and paṭighanusaya arise from kamāsava.
Bhvarāganusaya arises from bhavāsava.
Avijjānusaya and mānanusaya arise from avijjāsava.
One cannot REMOVE the other three āsava until one removes ditthāsava at the Sōtapanna stage.”
The first sentence is correct, but then follows “…anusaya arise from … asava”, which is wrong. Correct is: Asava arise from anusaya.
July 1, 2020 at 8:43 am #31279
Yes. I was in a hurry and did not catch that one.
Thanks again, Tobias!
July 2, 2020 at 6:32 am #31289
The following post is from Tobias:
In the post Āsava, Anusaya, and Gati (Gathi) it is said under #2: “…That is like āsava bubbling up when we are disturbed by a strong sense event. When that happens, we display our real character/habits or gati (gati). …”
In ultimate terms these asava, gati, anusaya do not exist. Just citta, cetasika, rupa exist. Thus in the Abhidhamma language those words are concepts. The mind/nature connects citta, cetasika based on an arammana (rupa/namarupa) and other conditions (paccaya, rupa?). How can we understand anusaya as “deep down defilements” and asava as “bubbling up” to “display gati”? All three are the same: defilements in form of citta/cetasika/namarupa.
July 2, 2020 at 6:44 am #31290
Tobias wrote: “In ultimate terms these asava, gati, anusaya do not exist. Just citta, cetasika, rupa exist.”
The Buddha said it is not correct to say whether something in this world “exists” or “does not exist.”
– Things in this world exist ONLY based on appropriate causes and conditions.
This is also related to the question of whether a “self” exists or not. A “self” exists only based on appropriate causes and conditions. When such causes and conditions are not there, a “self” ceases to exist in this world.
– That is what happens to an Arahant at the time of death. Since there are no more causes and conditions for existence, that Arahant ceases to exist in this world.
We should understand citta, cetasika, rupa as just basic building blocks of this world. That is what is meant by “paramattha dhamma” in that case.
– Those things also cease to exist for an Arahant after death.
Anusaya, asava, and gati are just combinations of those basic building blocks, just like a physical body is an aggregate of four great elements (which of course belong to rupa).
– They all exist as long as appropriate causes and conditions are there.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.