[Tobias G]

Anidassana, Appaṭigha Rupa Due to Anidassana Viññāṇa

Vinnana is gone in a split second, but when one needs to remember a certain thing (like the shopping list) there must be dhammā that can come back to mind. That means even non-kamma vinnana are stored as anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (dhammā). Is that right?

[Lal]

Yes. That is right.

What you called a “non-kamma vinnana” is a namagotta. ALL our actions are recorded as namagotta, whether or not they may have kammic consequences.
– Those events with kammic consequences (i.e., kammic energy) are “dhammā“. In other words, namagotta with kammic energies are dhammā.

Now, dhammā can bring vipaka on their own, when conditions are right.

But if we need to recall anything (namagotta with or without kammic energy) we need to make an effort to recall them. The brain sends a “cittaja ray (kirana)” to the vinnana dhatu and it comes back (reflected) with that memory.

I hope you can get an idea. Ask questions if not clear. I think I wrote about this in one post, but I cannot remember which post.

P.S. The following analogy may help with how we recall namagoatta.
Suppose, there is a chair in a dark room. If we walk into the room, we would not see the chair. But if we direct a flashlight to it, the light will reflect off the chair and we will see it.
– In the same way, we need to send a “beam of light” to the vinnana dhatu (nama loka), and only then it will reflect back with the memory.
– Our nama loka is very different from the rupa loka. We can recall memories (in nama loka) from anywhere. More in the next post.

[Tobias G]

Ok, but the “shopping list” can come back to the mind without an active effort to recall it. Therefore I think this is also a dhammā with a certain energy. I can also tell my mind to remind me of something at a special time or situation. That really works.

[Tobias G]

Is the shopping list just namarupa (not dhammā with energy)? And does it operate as aññamañña PS, … nāmarūpapaccayāpi viññāṇaṁ..?

from Vb 6

[Lal]

Yes. A viññāṇa (future expectation) becomes stronger via aññamañña PS: “nāmarūpa paccayā viññāna” followed by “viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa” followed by “nāmarūpa paccayā viññāna”, …
– It is a feedback loop that makes both nāmarūpa and viññāna grow.

It is discussed in “Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa”

Yes. It can work for a “mundane task” like a shopping list too.

Now, something else can come up to break that viññāṇa (future expectation).
– In the case of the shopping list for tomorrow, for example, if it turns out that you had to leave home immediately to go to a different city, that viññāṇa can “break” and you may not recall the shopping list anymore. Your mind then “knows” that there is no more need for that particualr shopping list.

P.S. Also see, “Āsēvana and Aññamañña Paccayā“

[Lal]

The following post is from Tobias G:

In “Tikanikkhepa” contains types of dhammā:

2.3.1.22. Sanidassanattika

Katame dhammā sanidassana­sappa­ṭighā­­? Rūpāyatanaṁ— ime dhammā sanidassana­sappa­ṭighā­­.

Katame dhammā anidassana­sappa­ṭighā­­? Cakkhāyatanaṁ, sotāyatanaṁ, ghānāyatanaṁ, jivhāyatanaṁ, kāyāyatanaṁ, saddāyatanaṁ, gandhāyatanaṁ, rasāyatanaṁ, phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ— ime dhammā anidassana­sappa­ṭighā­­.

Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho; yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaṁ appaṭighaṁ dhammā­yata­na­pariyāpanna­ṁ; asaṅkhatā ca dhātu— ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.

——————

Sappatigha are all internal pasada rupa (chakku, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya), and all external rupa (ruparupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthaba).

Appatigha are the khandhas, except rupakkhandha.

[Lal]

Tobias wrote:
“Appatigha are the khandhas, except rupakkhandha.”

That is not quite right.

The verses you quoted are not for khandhas. They are for “āyatana” or “indriya“. Those are cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha,kaya types of pasada rupa.

Khandhas are mental impressions.
See, “Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha”

[Tobias G]

Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho; yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaṁ appaṭighaṁ dhammā­yata­na­pariyāpanna­ṁ; asaṅkhatā ca dhātu— ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.

There are the khandhas. Those are anidassanaappaṭighā.

[Lal]

You are correct, Tobias.

There is one component in rupakkhandha which is sanidassana. That is “paccuppanna rupa” or “rupa that we are seeing at the present moment” which are only “vanna rupa” as well.

The past and future parts of rupakkhandha are anidassana.

[Tobias G]

What is the translation of this part: “…yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaṁ appaṭighaṁ dhammā­yata­na­pariyāpanna­ṁ; asaṅkhatā ca dhātu— ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.“

[Lal]

It means, “a rupa that cannot be seen, cannot be touched, and belongs to the dhammā­yata­na (i.e., a dhammā­) OR Nibbāna dhātu”
– They can make contact with the mind.

[Tobias G]

Understood, but I need to ask again:

Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā?
Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho;
yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaṁ appaṭighaṁ dhammā­yata­na­pariyāpanna­ṁ; asaṅkhatā ca dhātu
— ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.

“Dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā” means
– the mental khandhas
– OR a rupa that belongs to dhammā­yata­na or to Nibbana?

[Lal]

“dhammā” needs to be understood in the context.

In “Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā?” the question is asked: “WHAT are anidassanaappaṭighā?”

– That DOES NOT imply that “Nibbāna is a dhammā”

There are dhammā that come in “manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjāti manoviññāṇaṃ.”
– On the way to Arahanthood one experiences various stages of magga phala via contact with the mind.

However, once an Arahant attains Parinibbana, there are no more “contacts with the mind” since that Arahant is not reborn with a hadaya vatthu.

Does that answer the question? May be I am not understanding the question.

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