[pathfinder]

Akusala Citta and Akusala Vipāka Citta

Akusala Vipaka citta can arise from Akusala citta.

Post: ” Five of these akusala vipāka cittā are the ones that lead to (undesirable) sense events through the five physical senses. Thus, they are responsible for eye-consciousness (cakkhu viññāna), ear-consciousness (sota viññāna), nose consciousness (ghāna viññāna), taste consciousness (jivhā viññāna), and body consciousness (kāya viññāna).”

Except for the body consciousness which is accompanied by pain, the other four are accompanied by equanimity”

—

However, we also know that how we react and attach to vipaka depends on our gati at that time. Does this mean that an akusala vipaka citta can potentially bring a pleasurable feeling?

Let’s say in my country giving apples to people is an insult, and I intentionally give apples to other people to insult them. Then this can manifest as a future akusala vipaka citta where I receive apples. However in my next life I like to receive apples. Does this mean I can get pleasure from an akusala vipaka citta?

Also, are arahant’s able to receive akusala vipaka citta? They just don’t get attached to it. Then this also means that akusala vipaka citta will be less potent as one progresses on the path. Eg last time I use to scold people, so that manifest as a vipaka that I will get scolded back. But because of dhamma, I get less upset when someone scolds me.

[Lal]

1. What kind of kamma one engages in is unrelated to kamma vipaka.

• One could do an akusala kamma based on a good kamma vipaka. For example, suppose a poor person gets a hundred dollars as a gift. That is a good kamma vipaka. But that poor person could use that money to buy a gun and shoot his enemy.   

2. Kamma generation must not be attached to a kamma vipaka.

• In the “Nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63)“: “Cetanāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ vadāmi. Cetayitvā kammaṁ karoti—kāyena vācāya manasā” OR “Bhikkhus, I say one does kamma with intention. One does a kamma via thoughts, speech, and body based on intention.”
• That “word-by-word” translation does not convey the true meaning of the verse. A better translation (that provides the meaning is: “Bhikkhus, I say one does kamma with defiled intention. One does a kamma via defiled thoughts, speech, and body based on defiled intention.” 
• Therefore, it is essential to note that “cetanā” is “sancetanā” or “with raga, dosa, moha in mind.” With a defiled mind, one engages in defiled actions, speech, and thoughts. 
• See “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansara (or Samsara)“

3. Therefore, the easiest way to assess whether a given kamma can bring a “bad vipaka” is to see whether that action, speech, or thought was based on greed, anger, or ignorance. 

4. Let us analyze your example. 

• You wrote: “Let’s say in my country giving apples to people is an insult, and I intentionally give apples to other people to insult them.” In that case, you know you will insult someone if you give them apples. Thus, you know that person will be offended if you do it. So, it is a “bad kamma” on your part.
• You will not receive apples in the future just because you gave apples to someone. 
• Now, suppose you are in a different country where giving apples to people is NOT an insult. You see a hungry person and give them apples, expecting that will help quench their hunger. That is a good kamma. But the vipaka may not necessarily be to receive apples in the future. There will be a good vipaka corresponding to that good deed, but it does not have to be “receiving apples.”  

5. Arahants can experience both good and bad kamma vipaka until their physical body dies. 

• But they will not do either good kamma or bad kamma (that can bring vipaka in the future.)
• All their actions are categorized as “kriya” (or mere actions) that do not generate any kammic energy.

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Jittananto

[pathfinder]

In that case, will a good kamma vipaka always lead to good feelings? In the example you gave, a poor person getting 100 dollars as a good vipaka, there is an initial “good feeling”, that is because the gati of the person perceives it to be good. However, what if the gati of the person perceives it to be bad? Let’s say the person has some superstition against cash, and does not feel good receiving the $100. Would you say that is good or bad vipaka?

I find it confusing because if we agree that the same vipaka can bring different feelings based on our gati, then we can feel happy experiencing bad vipaka, and feel bad experiencing good vipaka, since it is up to our gati. 

[Lal]

I think you are over-analyzing with unreasonable assumptions: “Let’s say the person has some superstition against cash, and does not feel good receiving the $100.”

• Try sticking to reasonable assumptions. Don’t make things more complicated. 
• We are trying to understand Buddha’s teachings to remove future suffering. You seem more focused on making “lawyer-type” arguments to see whether Buddha Dhamma is “logical enough.” 
• That type of approach may not be conducive to learning. Furthermore, I don’t have the time to analyze all kinds of hypotheticals.

The best approach is to analyze your own scenarios/experiences rather than try to come up with far-fetched hypotheticals. If you do that, I would be happy to help.

[pathfinder]

Not really, im just trying to understand what makes a bad vipaka actually a bad vipaka. I can use more simple examples as well. I have heard of people getting angry when someone gives up a seat for them because they thought they were pregnant when they were just fat, then they get angry because people assume they were pregnant. So im not sure if getting the seat is a good vipaka which made them angry, or a bad vipaka which made them angry.

For a personal experience, I used to feel insulted if someone rejects my compliments. It can be a “neutral vipaka” when someone simply says “im not that good actually”. Or is it a bad vipaka for me because I feel insulted?

Another example: I used to find bananas disgusting to eat. Now I am alright to eat them. Was it a bad vipaka when i ate the bananas in the past, but a good vipaka when I eat them now?

[Lal]

It is better to focus on how one generates kamma rather than on kamma vipaka. 

• The Buddha said, “I will teach you what suffering is, how it arises, why it arises, and how to stop it from arising.”
• One cannot learn anything useful by studying kamma vipaka. That subject is fully comprehensible only to a Buddha: “Kamma vipāko, bhikkhave, acinteyyo, na cintetabbo.” See “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77).”
• The necessary translation: “There are four things that are unthinkable. They should not be thought about; anyone who tries to think about them will lose their mind or be frustrated. One of them is kamma vipāka.” 
• You should find other resources (if there are any) to discuss kamma vipaka.
• I have and will discuss only the necessary aspects. That is why I said I cannot waste my time analyzing each hypothetical situation. Only a Buddha can do that, but I doubt whether he would spend the time on such issues because they do not help us understand the origin of suffering.

[Waisaka]

Hi pathfinder, kamma comes from good and bad sanhkara.

For example, in this life you give me an apple to insult me, your mind is full of “san“. In the next life, you like apples and feel offended if you are given $100. Thus, the kamma vipaka you receive is $100, so it is a bad thing that comes back to you.

And your reaction to that new kamma vipaka will create a new kamma bija, and so on.

That’s my opinion.

[pathfinder]

That’s a sensible explanation! Unfortunately we have no way of confirming it, I won’t dwell into it further as Lal suggested.

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Waisaka

[Lal]

I think Waisaka only suggested one possibility out of many to give an idea. 

• In general, we only need to understand that good (moral) kamma lead to good vipaka and bad (immoral) kamma lead to bad vipaka.
• In addition, to cultivate Satipatthana or Anapanasati Bhavana, we must abstain from immoral deeds and engage in moral deeds. Here, “deeds” include our actions, speech, and thoughts. Furthermore, we must contemplate Dhamma concepts (like Paticca Samuppada), and that advances our mind toward the suffering-free pabhassara mind. 
• The above summarizes Buddha Dhamma. 

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dosakkhayo, Waisaka

[Lal]

I think this is a good time to remind everyone of the following.

Vedanā that appears in Paṭicca Samuppāda is “mind-made,” not the physical pain or physical pleasure. Part of that “mind-made vedanā” arises via “distorted saññā” (automatically), and another arises via “samphassa-jā-vedanā” a split-second later. I have not discussed that in detail yet, but it is good to keep in mind.

• In that context, any sukha vedanā coming through all the senses other than the physical body,  generate part of that “mind-made vedanā” via “distorted saññā.“

 

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dosakkhayo, Waisaka

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

pathfinder wrote:

Akusala Citta and Akusala Vipāka Citta

Akusala Vipaka citta can arise from Akusala citta.

Post: ” Five of these akusala vipāka cittā are the ones that lead to (undesirable) sense events through the five physical senses. Thus, they are responsible for eye-consciousness (cakkhu viññāna), ear-consciousness (sota viññāna), nose consciousness (ghāna viññāna), taste consciousness (jivhā viññāna), and body consciousness (kāya viññāna).”

Except for the body consciousness which is accompanied by pain, the other four are accompanied by equanimity”

—

However, we also know that how we react and attach to vipaka depends on our gati at that time. Does this mean that an akusala vipaka citta can potentially bring a pleasurable feeling?

Let’s say in my country giving apples to people is an insult, and I intentionally give apples to other people to insult them. Then this can manifest as a future akusala vipaka citta where I receive apples. However in my next life I like to receive apples. Does this mean I can get pleasure from an akusala vipaka citta?

Also, are arahant’s able to receive akusala vipaka citta? They just don’t get attached to it. Then this also means that akusala vipaka citta will be less potent as one progresses on the path. Eg last time I use to scold people, so that manifest as a vipaka that I will get scolded back. But because of dhamma, I get less upset when someone scolds me.

Goodhouseholder,

No, it’s not the case, that good fruits come from bad deeds, good householder. But heal, as well as neither heal nor pain feelings can follow right after bad deeds. (Upanissaya). That’s very important, and not understanding or having faith that good thinks never araise because of bad causes, and viciversa, is very needed (right view) be able to develop Brahmaviharas and Jhanas.

That doubt is the most burdensome for many in regard of especially developing mudita.

So when seeing a rich person acting bad, a harmful person, happy, don’t one think his gain of wealth is related to bad.

Don’t one think that one might get beaten from the receiver, after giving a gift, comes from good the good deed.

(Just to point out some simple samples, to be clear)

And as Nyom Lal poined out, it’s quite enought to have strong faith in that good brings good, bad, bad, otherwise, if one falls into the analysis line, like the Sublime Buddha warned: leads to getting crazy (certain an “Abhidhamma” dis-ease.

(Samana Johann)

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