[pathfinder]

In Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda – Bhava and Jāti Within a Lifetime, we refer to Mahānidānasutta.

Post:

2. Translation of the verse, “Atthi idappaccayā viññāṇan’ti iti puṭṭhena satā, ānanda, atthītissa vacanīyaṁ” in the above link is: “When asked, ‘Is there a specific condition for consciousness?’ you should answer, ‘There is.’

• “Specific condition” is the English phrase used in that translation for “idappaccayā.”
• However, “idappaccayā” comes from “ida” + “paccayā,” meaning “based on the conditions at that time.“
• Thus, the correct translation should be: “When asked, ‘Is there a viññāṇa arising due to conditions at that time?’ you should answer, ‘There is.’

However, if we were to use the same translation for the old age and death, we get the following:

‘Atthi idappaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti iti puṭṭhena satā, ānanda, atthītissa vacanīyaṁ. 

“When asked, ‘Is there a jarāmaraṇan (old age and death) arising due to conditions at that time?’ you should answer, ‘There is.’ 

How can old age arise due to conditions at that time? Is there a idappaccayā version of jarā (old age)?

[Lal]

1. Yes. “Idappaccayā” comes from “ida” + “paccayā,” meaning “based on the conditions at that time.“

2. At the beginning of the post, it says, “Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda explains the accumulation of kammic energies within the current life.”

• Bhava, jati, jara, marana,.. all refer to entities that arise within this life.
• However, part of the kammic energies accumulated via that process can contribute to future bhava, jati, jara, marana,. See #13 of the post you quoted.

3. Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda can also explain “grasping a “new existence/bhava” that will lead to births and deaths within that new bhava.

• Suppose a human bhava ends, and that lifestream grasps an animal existence (animal bhava.); let us say it is a deer. That will also take place with an Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda process taking place at that time. At the “upadana paccaya bhava” step, the mind of the dying human gandhabba will grasp the “animal bhava,” and a “deer gandhabba” will be born. Then, that “deer gandhabba” will be pulled into the womb of a female deer, and a baby deer will be born.

4. More details in “Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava.”

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Yash RS, Jittananto

[pathfinder]

I see. So Idappaccayā can be manifested in two ways.

1. In real time like the example given in Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda, of the drunk teenager. The (san)phassa paccayā vedanā refers to the good feelings of the teenager at that time.
2. The (san)phassa based on conditions at that time, or Idappaccayā (san)phassa can also lead to vedanā at the cuti-patisandhi moment. That is how Idappaccayā upadana can lead to future jati, future old age, and future death.

You said: Suppose a human bhava ends, and that lifestream grasps an animal existence (animal bhava.); let us say it is a deer. That will also take place with an Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda process taking place at that time. 

Is this not the uppatti Paṭicca samuppāda cycle at the cuti-patisandhi moment?

[Lal]

Yes. The Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda running at the cuti-patisandhi moment can be labeled “uppatti Paṭicca samuppāda” because that explains the arising of a new existence (for example, leaving the human existence and grasping an animal or Deva existence.) 

• But that is just another version of the Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda.
• One thing to note is that the arammana (sensory input) in that particular situation is initiated by accumulated kammic energy, i.e., by a “janaka kamma.” That is described only in Abhidhamma (not critical to understand), but it is good to remember. 

[pathfinder]

It makes sense that the Buddha talks about conditions at the moment. In the 6.2 he says: Suppose there were totally and utterly no upādāna for anyone anywhere. That is, upādāna at sensual pleasures, views, precepts and observances, and theories of a self. When there’s no upādāna at all, with the cessation of upādāna, would continued existence still be found?”

Here it clear that he is not describing the upādāna at the cuti-patisandhi moment, but the upādāna day to day. This is the same for his description for Taṇhā and Vedana. I have some questions though:

——

At 21.1 in  Mahānidāna Sutta, the Buddha says:

‘Consciousness is a condition for name and form’—that’s what I said. And this is a way to understand how this is so. If consciousness were not conceived in the mother’s womb, would name and form coagulate there?”

“No, sir.”

“If consciousness, after being conceived in the mother’s womb, were to be miscarried, would name and form be born into this place?” 

“No, sir.”

“If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name and form achieve growth, increase, and maturity?”

“No, sir.”

“That’s why this is the cause, source, origin, and reason of name and form, namely consciousness.

Why does the Buddha talk about the mother’s womb when the sutta is about conditions at that time/  Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Another interesting thing is that the Buddha skips saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso in that analysis, and links nama rupa straight to phasso. He also stops at viññāṇa in his anaylsis, he does not go back further to talk about avijja and sankhara.

It is also interesting to note that the Buddha describes another cycle in the middle of the PS cycle:

So it is, Ānanda, that feeling is a cause of craving. Craving is a cause of seeking. Seeking is a cause of gaining material things. Gaining material things is a cause of evaluation. Evaluation is a cause of desire and lust. Desire and lust is a cause of attachment. Attachment is a cause of ownership. Ownership is a cause of stinginess. Stinginess is a cause of safeguarding. 

[Lal]

Pathfinder asked: “Why does the Buddha talk about the mother’s womb when the sutta is about conditions at that time/  Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda?”

• Grasping a “human bhava” happens at the cuti-patisandhi moment, NOT when a gandhabba gets into a womb. A human gandhabba (mental body) is born well before it can get into a womb. So, in what you quoted above, the Buddha did not describe a cuti-patisandhi moment, but only the situation where a gandhabba gets into a womb. That translator does not understand this process, so it is misleading.
• To be born with a physical human body, that gandhabba must enter a womb, which normally can happens months or years after that. Then, a human baby is born, grows, and dies. If that person lived for 100 years, that is a much shorter time compared to the lifetime of the human gandhabba. So, the gandhabba comes out of the dead body and is pulled into another womb at a later time. There can be many births (jati) within a human bhava. See “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein.”
• To properly translate that sutta, the trasnaltor must understand what I described above. This is why many English translations are misleading or confusing. 

Pathfinder wrote: “Another interesting thing is that the Buddha skips saḷāyatana paccayā phasso in that analysis, and links nama rupa straight to phasso. He also stops at viññāṇa in his anaylsis, he does not go back further to talk about avijja and sankhara.”

• Yes. Here, “namarupa” represents “salayatana” too. 
• It is a deeper point. But the point is that the “namarupa creation” that happens in the mind that gives rise to a gandhabba being born with six ayatana (salayatana).
• Paticca Samuppada analysis can be done at various levels. Properly tanslating the “Mahanidana Sutta” can take a book. It is the main sutta on Paticca Samuppada. Word-by-word translations are useless (and can be dangerously misleading) for such suttas, which require detailed expalnations.

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