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The English “translated” Sutta’s we have today defines kaya sankhara as in-breath and out-breath, as well it’s translated that “breathing stops” in the 4th jhana. Does anyone know of any materials or teachings that’s “not Buddhism” describe the 4th jhana or more specifically if breathing really stops in the 4th jhana?Although I have to look more further and deeper into this, but I’m starting to really doubt kaya sankhara as in and out breaths, as well that breathing stops in 4th jhana.
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1. “Rahogata Sutta (SN 36.11)” : When in the first jhana samapatti, speech stops; in the second jhana samapatti, vitakka vicāra (i.e., vaci sankhara) stop; in the third jhana samapatti, pīti stops; in the fourth jhana samapatti, assāsapassāsā stops.
- “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāya saṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.”
- This suggests that Assāsapassāsā = kāya saṅkhāra = breathing.
- (Note: The above verse applies only to jhana samapatti and NOT to jhana.)
2. However, “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118):”kāye kāyānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ. Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ, bhikkhave, evaṁ vadāmi yadidaṁ—assāsapassāsā. “
- Here, assāsapassāsā = Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ (meaning “another kāya in kāya“).
- As I understand, “another kāya in kāya” here refers to ajjhatta/bahidda kāya at the beginning of a pancupadanakkhandha kāya. I have not yet discussed that concerning Anapanasati. But it is related to ajjhatta/bahidda vinnana , which we discussed.
3. I am not certain whether assāsapassāsā convey two different meanings in the two situations. I tend to think that there are two meanings: In the first case, breathing stops while one is in the fourth jhana samapatti. The meaning in the second case is entirely different.
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Thank you for the reply Venerable Sir, it definitely helped me to rethink things again. When I said “I’m starting to really doubt kaya sankhara as in and out breaths” maybe that was not the best choice of words. Instead I should’ve shared my idea or the reason’s for thinking so and get scrutiny and feedback.“I tend to think that there are two meanings: In the first case, breathing stops while one is in the fourth jhana samapatti. The meaning in the second case is entirely different.”My current thinking is that “it’s possible” in the first case where maybe something more than just the breath stopping or that it might not even be about just breathing. While in the second case I also believe it’s something entirely different.When I can gather more data and can better share the reasons for my thinking, I do hope to share then for scrutiny and feedback. Thank you once again.
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Hi,
I’d like to ask a different line of question about jhana samapatti if I may.
Let’s say that a person is in an anariya jhana samapatti, which means that during that time he is in a temporary rupavacara bhava.
Is the upadana paccaya bhava step still operating in this case? And if so is jhana the object of upadana?
Thank you,
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Getting into an anariya jhana means transcending the kama loka temporarily.
- However, unless those jhana cittas run continuously, a mind can “fall back” to kama loka in between jhana cittas. If the mind continuously generates jhana cittas, one is in a jhana samapatti.
- As a mind keeps ascending to higher jhana samapatti, it starts separating from the kama loka. That means it start dropping “bodily functions” at higher jhana samapatti.
That should explain the following I wrote above:
1. “Rahogata Sutta (SN 36.11)” : When in the first jhana samapatti, speech stops; in the second jhana samapatti, vitakka vicāra (i.e., vaci sankhara) stop; in the third jhana samapatti, pīti stops; in the fourth jhana samapatti, assāsapassāsā stops.
- Thus, it makes sense to equate assāsapassāsā there with breathing. Breathing stops while in the fourth jhana samapatti and the physical body is now kept alive by kammic energy.
- P.S. This explains how a yogi can “come out of the physical body” with the manomaya kaya (or gandhabba) while in the fourth jhana samapatti. All functions of the physical body stop, and one is like a rupa loka Brahma!
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Now, to address Lang’s question: “Let’s say that a person is in an anariya jhana samapatti, which means that during that time he is in a temporary rupavacara bhava.
Is the upadana paccaya bhava step still operating in this case? And if so is jhana the object of upadana?”
Yes. An anariya yogi‘s mind latches onto the mindset of the first jhana as soon as it transcends kama loka.
- However, there is no need to “upadana” a specific arammana to get to the first jhana. One can focus on a neutral object (one must also suppress all immoral and sensual thoughts) to transcend the kama loka, and it automatically latches onto the mindset of the first jhana.
- With practice, one can stay in the first jhana without dropping back to kama loka, and then one is in the first jhana samapatti.
A Sotapanna can transcend the kama loka permanently by eliminating kama raga and attaining the Anagami stage of Nibbana. That happens via cultivating Satipatthana/Anapanasati. The mind of an Anagami may or may not automatically get into the first jhana, which corresponds to the mindset of a Brahma in the first realm in the rupa loka. If the Anagami does not get into a jhana, his mind will stay at the “kama dhatu” stage and NEVER get to the “kama bhava.”
- There could be “panna vimutta” Arahants who have not cultivated jhana. Their minds will also stay at the “kama dhatu” stage and NEVER get to the “kama bhava,” “rupa bhava,” or even “arupa bhava.”
- These are not necessary things to learn. But it is good to have an idea.
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Yes. Of course.
- They cannot engage in in any “kaya kamma” (stealing, killing, etc.) either since they don’t have a physical body.
- They cannot speak lies etc., too, since they do not have mouths. But they can generate vaci sankhara and mano sankhara. See “Correct Meaning of Vaci Saṅkhāra.”
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Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro? Kāyasañcetanā kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsañcetanā vacīsaṅkhāro, manosañcetanā cittasaṅkhāro. Ime vuccanti “avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”.
English translation
Herein, what is a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body?
(There is) an intention expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body. (There is) an intention expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech. (There is) an intention expressed by way of the mind, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.
This is said to be ‘with ignorance as condition there are (volitional) processes’.
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Based on what’s quoted, I take it the question of “What is kayasankharo”? or something similar is being asked / expressed. My interest lies in the vibhanga then goes on to list the different sancetana’s and sankhara’s kaya, vaci, citta, mano right after, almost like the vibhanga is saying those different sancetana’s and sankhara’s are also kayasankhara?
Seeing “avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā” at the end of the sentence leads me to believe that the vibhanga is saying those sañcetanā‘s and sankhara‘s are “avijja paccaya sankhara”, which I would agree. But what I’m trying to wrap my head around is why would the phrase Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro? be mentioned and then have those sancetana’s and sankhara’s kaya, vaci, mano, citta listed right after? Any thoughts on this?
I know the other sankhara’s (vaci, citta) and kaya sankhara are defined in the Culavedallasutta M.N 44. What’s also of interest to me is that from the P.S. vibhanga English translation and under the same section 1.2 Definition of (volitional) process.
The Analysis of Conditional Origination
I could be mistaken or might have missed, but I don’t see Tattha katamo of the other 2 sankhara’s or “What is vacisankharo or mano / citta sankhara” being mentioned in the P.S. vibhanga and only coming across Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro?.
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Please take the time to prepare the comment. I made some corrections/improvements so that others can understand it.
1. Yes. “Tattha katamo kāya saṅkhāro?” means “What is kaya sankhara?”
- Pali verses are not broken into separate words in many instances. “kāyasaṅkhāro” is “kāya saṅkhāro.”
- Also, singular words usually end with “o” in Pali. Thus, “kāya saṅkhāro” means “kāya saṅkhāra.”
2. I do not know why it asks the question, “What is kaya sankhara?” and goes on to explain the other two types as well.
- But it should not matter. Should it?
3. All we need to know here is that kamma can be done with the mind (thoughts arising in the mind), speech, and bodily actions. They are, respectively, citta (or mano) saṅkhāra, vaci saṅkhāra, and kāya saṅkhāra.
- But all three types arise in the mind. The first kind can arise without conscious thinking (automatically) and those are also called sankappa.
- To be included in “avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā” those must be “abhisankhara” done with sancetana (i.e., with raga, dosa, moha in mind.)
- The “Saṅkhāra Sutta (AN 3.23)” conveys those ideas.
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Thank you sir and sorry for any inconveniences that I might have caused with my previous questioning.
2. I do not know why it asks the question, “What is kaya sankhara?” and goes on to explain the other two types as well.
- But it should not matter. Should it?
I’m not sure, maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. That’s what I’m trying to figure out.
Would moving the “physical” mouth / tongue, nose, eyes, ears be considered kaya sankhara or more specifically when we use our mouth, nose, eyes or ears for a intended purpose? For example, I’m sitting down, my arms, legs, head are not moving at all. Then all of sudden a sight catches my eyes and I would focus on the sight with the eyes without moving any parts of my body besides maybe my eyes. Or I would turn on some music with the intention of enjoying the sound that would go through the ears to the mind. Would such actions or examples be considered as kaya sankhara according to sir or others thinking?
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There is a difference between sankhara and abhisankhara (sankhara with raga, dosa, moha, or defilements). Arahants generate sankhara but not abhisankhara.
- The problem is that suttas use sankhara to describe abhisankhara in many situations. For example, sankhara in “avijja paccaya sankhara” refer to “avijja paccaya abhisankhara.” One needs to understand the usage.
- The same applies to many other words. For example, actions with cetana are not “defiled actions,” but actions with “sancetana” are; yet, in many cases, “cetana” really means “sancetana.”
- Of course, most translators do not understand that which is a big problem. We have discussed that in many posts: “Elephant in the Room 1 – Direct Translation of the Tipiṭaka“
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“Do those actions involve sancetana (i.e., with raga, dosa, moha in mind)?”
My apologize, I should’ve included whether there’s defiled intentions behind the examples given. For the next post in this thread, I’ll work on to better express my thoughts in a more clear and concise manner. Really thank you for your time and energy spent on answering my questions, as well for the experience showing what I can do to further improve.
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