[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

In the following post https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of-practice/seeking-nibbana/dasa-samyojana-bonds-in-rebirth-process/ you have mentioned that;

One thing is quite clear: One cannot attain Ariya first jhāna without REMOVING (ucceda pahāna, not just vishakambana pahāna) of kāma rāga, i.e., kāma anusaya must be removed, not just suppressed.
If a Sōtapannā can automatically get into the first Ariya jhāna, then he/she will never be born in the human world again; but we know that a Sōtapannā can be reborn in the human realm; thus a Sōtapannā would not have the first Ariya jhāna.

Is there any reference for these two points in the tripitaka? Why do you say so?

Also, when you say; ‘if a sotapanna can “automatically” get into the first ariya jhana’, do you mean that if this happens automatically and without any effort?

[Lal]

These questions are answered in a series of 3 posts:
Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala

I think the second post gives those references, but it is good idea to read all three to get a good idea.

I have removed the word “automatically” from the original post you referred to. Yes. It is confusing . Thanks.

[Akvan]

Thanks, I went through those posts and have a few comments / queries.

The sutta’s mention that one needs to abstain from akusala and kama to get to the first jhana (vivicca kamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi). And as you mention, abstaining does not mean complete removal.

This corresponds with the Kama Sutta, where it is mentioned that kama is suppressed while in the first jhana upto nevasanna na sanna. In the same way it is mentioned that kama could be suppressed by using (bhaventopi) the buddhanussati and anapanasati etc. So we cannot come to the conclusion that this is referring to a anariya jhana.

In the Mahavedalla Sutta it is mentioned that the pancanivarana are removed. As I understand kamachanda and byapada are not the same as kama raga and patiga. So does this mean that even though pancanivarana is removed there can be the kama raga and patiga samyojana?

In the Jhana Sutta it is mentioned that if one does not complete the removal of āsava, while in the first jhana, he would remove the first five samyōjana because of the dhamma raga and dhamma nandiya and thus will be born opapatika (in brahma loka) and attain pariNibbāna there, and will not return to this world.

It is not mentioned that one needs to eliminate the first five samyojana to get into the first jhana but only needs to abstain from it. After he gets to the first jhana (by practicing it) he can eliminate the five samyojana and become an anāgāmi.

[Lal]

Akvan said: “This corresponds with the Kama Sutta, where it is mentioned that kama is suppressed while in the first jhana upto nevasanna na sanna.”

It would be helpful if you provide the link to the sutta, and the verse (in Pali or English).

I do not see any such description in Kāma Sutta (Snp 4.1).

Please provide the link to the sutta, and the verse (in Pali or English) regarding other questions too. That will save me a lot of time scanning through a sutta and trying to find the relevant verse.

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

Sorry, I have inserted the links to the sutta’s and pali sections to my earlier post and added some new content as well.

The sutta’s mention that one needs to abstain from akusala and kama to get to the first jhana (vivicca kamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi). And as you mention, abstaining does not mean complete removal.

This corresponds with the Kama Sutta (https://suttacentral.net/mnd1/pli/ms), where it is mentioned that kama is suppressed while in the first jhana upto nevasanna na sanna. In the same way it is mentioned that kama could be suppressed by using (bhaventopi) the buddhanussati and anapanasati etc. So we cannot come to the conclusion that this is referring to an anariya jhana.

Pali: Buddhānussatiṃ bhāventopi vikkhambhanato kāme parivajjeti, dhammānussatiṃ bhāventopi … pe … …. ānāpānassatiṃ bhāventopi … upa¬sa¬mānus¬sa¬tiṃ bhāventopi vikkhambhanato kāme parivajjeti.
Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ bhāventopi vikkhambhanato kāme parivajjeti … pe … dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ bhāventopi … … neva¬saññā¬nā¬saññāya¬tana¬samā¬pattiṃ bhāventopi vikkhambhanato kāme parivajjeti. Evaṃ vikkhambhanato kāme parivajjeti.

In the Mahavedalla Sutta (https://suttacentral.net/mn43/pli/ms) it is mentioned that the pancanivarana are removed.
Pali: Paṭhamaṃ kho, āvuso, jhānaṃ pañcaṅ¬ga¬vippa¬hīnaṃ, pañcaṅ¬ga¬saman¬nā¬gataṃ. Idhāvuso, paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa bhikkhuno kāmacchando pahīno hoti, byāpādo pahīno hoti, thinamiddhaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, uddhac¬ca¬kukkuc¬caṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, vicikicchā pahīnā hoti;

In the naga sutta (https://suttacentral.net/pi/an9.40) it is mentioned that one gets to the first jhana by removing panca nivarana and abstaining from kama.
So ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

In the Jhana Sutta (https://suttacentral.net/an9.36/pli/ms) it is mentioned that if one does not complete the removal of āsava, while in the first jhana, he would remove the first five samyōjana because of the dhamma raga and dhamma nandiya and thus will be born opapatika (in brahma loka) and attain pariNibbāna there, and will not return to this world.

Pali: evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So yadeva tattha hoti rūpagataṃ vedanāgataṃ saññāgataṃ saṅkhāragataṃ viññāṇagataṃ, te dhamme aniccato dukkhato rogato gaṇḍato sallato aghato ābādhato parato palokato suññato anattato samanupassati. So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpeti. So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpetvā amatāya dhātuyā cittaṃ upasaṃharati: ‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabba¬saṅ¬khā¬ra¬sama-tho sabbū¬padhipa¬ṭi¬nissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti. So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṃ khayaṃ pāpuṇāti. No ce āsavānaṃ khayaṃ pāpuṇāti, teneva dhammarāgena tāya dhammanandiyā pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā opapātiko hoti tattha parinibbāyī anāvattidhammo tasmā lokā. ‘Paṭhamampāhaṃ, bhikkhave, jhānaṃ nissāya āsavānaṃ khayaṃ vadāmī’ti, iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ, idametaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ.

In addition the anupubbaviharasamapatti sutta (https://suttacentral.net/pi/an9.33) mentions that kama is repeatedly stopped while being in the first jhana.

idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Ettha kāmā nirujjhanti, te ca kāme nirodhetvā nirodhetvā viharantī’ti.

If vivicca kamehi meant that kama is completely removed then it doesn’t need to be mentioned again that kama will not arise (nirodha, nirujjanti etc.).

In Tapussagahapati Sutta (https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/pli/ms) it is mentioned that in the first jhana one will get kama sanna and that the kama sanna is a hindrance.
So kho ahaṃ, ānanda, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharāmi. Tassa mayhaṃ, ānanda, iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā sañ¬ñāmana¬sikārā samudācaranti. Svassa me hoti ābādho.

So based on these sutta’s my conclusion is as follows:
One needs to eliminate the panca nivarana (be a sotapanna) and abstain from kama and akusala dhamma, to get to the first arya jhana. While in the first arya jhana one should contemplate on the anicca, dukka, anatta nature etc. Through this method he can attain nibbana. So it is not absolutely necessary to get to higher jhana to attain nibbana, if one is to attain nibbana through jhana. If one does not attain nibbana through practicing this method because of his liking to the dhamma (dhamma nandiya, dhamma ragaya) he will eliminate orambagiya samyojana and become an anagami.

[Lal]

Thanks, Akvan.

I had not read the kama sutta that you quoted. It is VERY long.

We need to be very careful about the descriptions in various suttas. Some of them discuss just jhana in general, which seem to be anariya jhana. But a few suttas like the Jhana Sutta that you quoted refer clearly to Ariya jhanas.

I found the following sutta which clearly state the difference between Ariya and anariya jhanas. I need to add this sutta reference to one of those posts at the website that I referred to.

Paṭhamanānākaraṇa Sutta (AN 4. 123): “ Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati. Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tab¬bahu¬la-vihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahma¬kāyikā¬naṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati. Brahma¬kāyikā-naṃ, bhikkhave, devānaṃ kappo āyuppamāṇaṃ. Tattha puthujjano yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā nirayampi gacchati tiracchā¬na¬yonimpi gacchati pettivisayampi gacchati. Bhagavato pana sāvako tattha yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā tasmiṃyeva bhave parinibbāyati. Ayaṃ kho, bhikkhave, viseso ayaṃ adhippayāso idaṃ nānākaraṇaṃ sutavato ariyasāvakassa assutavatā puthujjanena, yadidaṃ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.”

Translated: “There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality (kāma), withdrawn from akusala, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there—fixed on that, dwelling there often, not losing the jhana—then when he dies he is born with the devas of Brahma’s retinue. The devas of Brahma’s retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal realm, or to the state of the hungry ghosts. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, attains Parinibbana. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between a Noble disciple and a normal person who had not heard the Noble Truths (assutavatā puthujjanena), in regards to the gati and birth.”

I hope this answers your root question. As I discussed in those posts at the website, when one attains the first Ariya jhana, one has become an Anagami. He/she will be born in that brahma realm and will attain Parinibbana there, as clearly stated in the above sutta.

In other words, kama raga is to be completely REMOVED to get to the first Ariya Jhana. It is only temporarily suppressed (vikkhambana pahana) for the anariya jhana.

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

According to the Paṭhamanānākaraṇasutta (https://suttacentral.net/an4.123/pli/ms) what one experiences in the first jhana is the same for an ariya or anariya. If an ariya or anariya practices the first jhana and dies without its effects decaying (aparihani) then he would be born in the brahma realm.

So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati. Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati.

This rebirth in the brahma realm is due to the fact that a person “savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there—fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that”, that being the first jhana. This can mean that an ariya who say got to the first jhana one time but did (could) not dwell there often etc., may not be born in the brahma realm.

This rebirth in the Brahma realm (for an ariya or anariya) is due to the gathi of the person and not due to a magga pala. yadidaṃ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.

For an ariya, he does not return to this world and therefore could be called an anagami, however it does not necessarily mean that he has attained anagami pala.

All explanations of first jhana (ariya or anariya) mention viviccha kamehi, viviccha akusalehi dhammehi, which means abstaining from kama. If one can get a kama sanna (which is a hindrance) in the first jhana it means that one has not completely eliminated kama raga. Therefore one doesn’t have to have attained anagami pala to get to an ariya jhana.

[Lal]

Akvan said: “So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati. Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati.“

This is part of the quote that I gave from the sutta in my response. I have highlighted that and its translation there too. That means “He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there—fixed on that, dwelling there often, not losing the jhana—then when he dies he is born with the devas of Brahma’s retinue.”

You also said, “All explanations of first jhana (ariya or anariya) mention viviccha kamehi, viviccha akusalehi dhammehi, which means abstaining from kama.” That is correct too. It just says one has “withdrawn from sensuality (kāma), withdrawn from akusala”, and leaves it open whether it is just suppression (vikkhambana pahana) or permanent removal (ucceda pahana).

So when you said, “This rebirth in the Brahma realm (for an ariya or anariya) is due to the gathi of the person and not due to a magga pala. yadidaṃ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.”, that is correct. Both are born in that brahma realm.

But in the same verse below that (which I also highlighted in my earlier response) explains what happens to a normal human and an Araiya after that life in the brahma realm comes to an end. The anariya, who had only suppressed kama raga (vikkhambana pahana) to get to the first jhana, comes back and may be born in apayas. But the Ariya (disciple of the Blessed One), who had removed kama raga (ucceda pahana), attains Parinibbana without coming back to kama loka.

So, when you said, “For an ariya, he does not return to this world and therefore could be called an anagami, however it does not necessarily mean that he has attained anagami pala.”, that is NOT correct. It is effectively the same, since he will get the phala moment there and then be reborn in a suddhavasa reserved for Anagamis. Anagami means “na agami” or not coming back to the kama loka. For that, he would have removed (ucceda pahana) kama raga.

This is a grave error made by even some followers of Waharaka Thero in Sri Lanka these days, even though Waharaka Thero has clarified this in his dessnas. The following is such a desna, and of course it is in Sinhala: “Ariya and Anariya Jhana“.

That is why I am emphasizing this. But of course, it is up to each individual to decide for oneself.

[y not]

Lal:

I make a connection here to Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52 (AN 7.49) where the attainment of the state of Anagami is also the final and highest ‘reward’ of Dana (albeit after a stay in the Brahmakayikanam devanam realm), just as it is with the Pathamanakarana.

It is Sariputta who is asking the questions, but note that it is ‘lay followers’ who are in attendance – and they were led there specifically
by Sariputta to listen to the desana. After the first six motives of Dana with their particular rewards in the 6 realms immediately above the human one are enumerated by the Self-Perfected One, He states the seventh motive to be : ‘with the thought: this is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind’ – cittalankaracittaparikkharam- leading after death first to the realm of the retinue of Brahma and to Anagami
after that. No mention of Ariya Jnanas here – the sequence of attainment is the same as in the case of the Pathamanakarana; here, however,with
the neceessity of entering the first Jhana.

A word about the intended meaning of the motive, as that may be very relevant. Most readers on other websitestake take ‘an ornament, a support for the mind’ as an attainment, therefore something to strive for, something even better to have than the motive just inferior to it,, that of ‘joy and satisfaction arise’,which leads only to the highest
of the kamaloka realms. However, my understanding is that this ‘ornament, this support for the mind’ only strenghtens the sense of
‘I and mine’ – because, whose mind is thus being adorned and supported? It is the same mind that has been the cause of all this wandering-on. The core message, as I see, is to do away with all motives.
Thus, when the motive to gain’ adornment, support for the mind’ arises, it should be pushed aside..But is it in fact pushed aside?
Because if it in fact were pushed aside, one would then be an Arahant. Embracing the thought ‘this is an ornament,a support for the mind’, one still has mana – one is actually strenghtening it. So it leads to the Anagami stage, not the Arahant stage.

Correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

y not

[Lal]

@y not: The Sutta Central Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52 does not have the full version (even in the Pali version).

Could you provide the reference where the 6 realms of rebirths are actually listed?

[y not]

Lal:

I knew that but thought you would know that Accesstoinsight has it. Heading: Generosity- dana, caga. Subtitle:manyy motives, many fruits.
(penultimate section). English only

regards,

y not

[Lal]

@ y not: Yes. There are many suttas such as the one you quoted (which I had not read), where it is shown that magga phala can be attained without going through any jhana.

But this sutta is interesting in that it says Anagami stage is possible by alms giving or making offerings (dana).

On the surface it appears that one may not need to have a comprehension of Tilakkhana or the Four Noble Truths in order to attain the Anagami stage.

The relevant passage is at the end of the Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52: “yvāyaṃ na heva sāpekho dānaṃ deti; na pati¬baddha-citto dānaṃ deti; na sannidhipekho dānaṃ deti; na ‘imaṃ pecca pari¬bhuñjis¬sāmī’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘sāhu dānan’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘dinnapubbaṃ katapubbaṃ pitupitāmahehi na arahāmi porāṇaṃ kulavaṃsaṃ hāpetun’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘ahaṃ pacāmi, ime na pacanti, nārahāmi pacanto apacantānaṃ dānaṃ adātun’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘yathā tesaṃ pubbakānaṃ isīnaṃ tāni mahāyaññāni ahesuṃ, seyyathidaṃ—aṭṭhakassa vāmakassa vāmadevassa vessāmittassa yamadaggino aṅgīrasassa bhāradvājassa vāseṭṭhassa kassapassa bhaguno, evaṃ me ayaṃ dānasaṃvibhāgo bhavissatī’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘imaṃ me dānaṃ dadato cittaṃ pasīdati, attamanatā somanassaṃ upajāyatī’ti dānaṃ deti; api ca kho cit¬tā¬laṅkā¬ra¬citta¬parik¬khā¬raṃ dānaṃ deti. So taṃ dānaṃ datvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā brahma¬kāyikā¬naṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati. So taṃ kammaṃ khepetvā taṃ iddhiṃ taṃ yasaṃ taṃ ādhipaccaṃ anāgāmī hoti anāgantā itthattaṃ.”

However, in order to have that mindset (“yvāyaṃ na heva sāpekho dānaṃ deti; na pati¬baddha¬citto dānaṃ deti; na sannidhipekho dānaṃ deti; na ‘imaṃ pecca pari¬bhuñjis¬sāmī’ti dānaṃ deti;..”), one has to comprehend Tilakkhana.

This is what I will be discussing in the next desana on Tilakkhana. The ‘right mindest” comes with anicca sanna.

A normal human does pretty much everything with the nicca sanna. Therefore, even when giving, even if one may not be thinking about “getting something in return”, that sanna is with that person. In suttas this is called “sanna vipallasa”. In Sinhala it is called “vipareetha sanna”. I have used the phrase “vipareetha sanna” in several posts, I need to change that to provide the Pali phrase “sanna vipallasa”.

You can do a search at the Puredhamma site with the key word “vipareetha sanna” and there are several posts.

The bottom line is that in order to have the right mindset to reap more benefits of giving, one must have the anicca sanna to some level. That anicca sanna must be at a high level to reap higher benefits of giving and to become an Anagami.

I will try to incorporate this to the next desana on Tilakkhana, because it is an important point. Thanks to y not for the comment.

Finally, to provide the web link, type the title (say, the name of a sutta), select it, and then click “link” on the formatting options. That will open a link window, asking for the url of the web page. Now open that web link in a different window, copy it and paste it. You may also want to select “open in a new window”, so that the reader can access that web page in a different window, while staying in the forum.

Here is the web page that y not referred to: Generosity, dana, caga

It is simple and will save a lot time for others to try to find the web page. Thanks.

[y not]

Lal:

Thanks. It turns out that Suttacental does have the full text after all!

You say: ” even if one may not be thinking about “getting something in return”, that sanna (Vipalassa) is with that person” How is this? If for many years one has seen and LIVED THE FACT that expecting something in return will result in having to come back to this world or some other to reap the fitting reward, be it even a gross material planet where the humanity is not only technologically, but spiritually ahead of this one here, of which there are many in this one Galaxy alone,AND HAS ALSO SEEN that any life anywhere puts limits and constraints on one and is limited in duration, and is in the end only a burden and a delusion- then,THEN
one seeks only for Perfection. But to earn that Perfection one will have to become perfect oneself.Perfection, or the Ideal of Perfection is one other meaning of ATTA that I see implied in some suttas.

Now is this not in fact anicca put in layman terms? DukKHA and Anatta follow as a matter of course. Everything is seen to be imperfect, unsatisfactory, not yielding what it promises, a disappointment, not fruitful, a delusion: a-nicca……from the contemplation of which follows pain, sorrow and many kinds of suffering, and even more of it if one sees that there is no way of stopping it in any future, here or elsewhere in material, however fine, existence: dukkha and dukKHA…..leading to the realization, I call it even a ‘revolt inside oneself’ that dukKHA cannot be the final destiny of Life (is ANATTA) ,that Perfection in the most comprehensive sense of the word exists somewhere (ATTA) and that some do perfect themselves and out of compassion show the Way.*

*The full implications of this taken with the fact of the infinite number of inhabited worlds in the numberless universes, the appearing and disappearing of which is a process that has never had a beginning,will be mind-boggling to most. So I shall refrain.

y not

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Jittananto

[Lal]

@y not : “ It turns out that Suttacental does have the full text after all!”

No. The Sutta Central version does not have details about different births, other than Anagami, for “other types on state of mind”.

Regarding sanna vipllasa: Those sanna vipallasa are removed permanently at different levels at different stages of magga phala. A significant part is removed at the Sotapanna stage (regarding apayagami akusala), and those regarding sense plessures are reduced at the Sakadagami stage and removed at the Anagami stage. All (including jhanic pleasures) are removed at the Arahant stage.

When they are removed with magga phala, they do not come back even if one is reborn in another galaxy or anywhere in this world, if that is what you were asking.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Jittananto

[y not]

Lal:

I just checked again the link you gave for good measure:
Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52: on Suttacentral and in the English version at least, the six Kamaloka realms ARE mentioned. Or does the content of texts on the internet differ according to location? I am not joking!! Or else, either you, I, or the two of us are not quite right in th head. I copy and paste some lines from the English version:
– he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings.
– he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three.
– he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Hours.
…and so on right up to the
– he reappears in the company of the devas who have power over the creations of others.

As to ‘ When they are removed with magga phala, they do not come back even if one is reborn in another galaxy or anywhere in this world, if that is what you were asking’ – no Lal, I was not ASKING that. What I
wanted to know right at the beginning is whether I read the meaning of the suttas correctly, specifically whether the English translations of the key Pali words are correct, for that tells me whether my ‘world view’ accords with Buddhadhamma’

y not

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Jittananto

[Lal]

@y not: You are right. The English version has the full description. But the Pali and the Sinhala versions, which I looked at, do not. I normally look at those two versions, and not the English version. In this case I should have.

As far as the English translation: Translation is good for the most part, except for where it really counts. It does not explain how giving dana by itself cannot lead to the Anagami stage.

Yes. Your point that one does not need to attain jhanas to get to the Anagami stage was correct. I mentioned that in my first response.

I was not refuting your statement. I was merely pointing out the “meat” in the sutta that most translations miss: Exactly how one can get to the Anagami stage by dana or giving. It is not just the act of giving. One has to have the right mindset, and that comes from grasping Tilakkhana; that last part about the Tilakkhana and “sanna vipallasa“, is the “meat” or the essence.

In most translations, an effort is not made to point out the critical aspect of a sutta. They merely translate “word-to-word”. Most suttas are uddesa (condensed) version. One needs to explain in detail what that condensed version says; see, “Sutta – Introduction“.

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Jittananto

[y not]

Lal:

Great. Thanks.That is what I am here for.

As the All-Perfected One preached in a country, langauage and culture alien to what we now call the West, the meaning , moreover, the hiddden
meaning of words in the Pali is CRUCIAL. That is one other reason why I appreciate so much what you are doing.

To clarify things: by ‘It does not explain how giving dana by itself cannot lead to the Anagami stage.’ Are you sure you do not meean ‘It does not explain how giving dana by itself CAN lead to the Anagami stage.’? There is a difference. And, finally, would it be reasonable to understand that if giving with the thought ‘ this is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind’ leads to the Anagami stage, then, not being attached even to that motive, i.e.not having any motive whatsoever, doing whatever needs to be done just because it is there to be done (it could be somebody else, makes no difference to one), what the Gita calls Niskamakarma, would lead, by extension, to an even higher destination. I know it is not stated per se, it is just an implication that came to mind.

Please appreciate I have been delving into and reflecting on these matters for decades; coming across Puredhamma added fuel to the flame of inquiry. So I have perhaps taken more of your time than I should have.

y not

[Lal]

y not said: ” Are you sure you do not meean ‘It does not explain how giving dana by itself CAN lead to the Anagami stage.’?”

No. I meant the opposite.

This is a VERY IMPORTANT point. In fact, grasping anicca nature is very much related to it.

One would NOT really have the mindset to give “without expecting something in return” at least in the “subconscious” if one does not have some understanding of Tilakkhana. Otherwise, attaining Nibbana would be much easier, and a Buddha would not be needed.

This is why I said that from the English or Sinhala translations at Sutta Central do not really explain the difference between the last category where one gets to the Anagami stage, and all other categories where one is born in a higher realm due to giving, but would end up in the apayas in the future.

One ALWAYS has “sanna vipallasa“, unless one comprehends Tilakkhana to some extent. That understanding increasing with higher magga phala, and “sanna vipallasa” completely goes away only at the Arahant stage.

I just published the second discourse on Tilakkhana at “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.

Anyone interested should listen to that and it is better to move this discussion to the forum for discourse 2 that I just opened. Those two desanas (and the relevant posts mentioned there) need to be listened to (and read) carefully in order to comprehend this point, and in essence, Tilakkhana.

We can come back to this discussion later if needed. But for now, it is essential to understand those two discourses.

I am glad that you brought up this sutta at the right time.

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Jittananto

[pathfinder]

Dānamahapphalasutta 12.11

But they give a gift thinking, ‘This is an adornment and requisite for the mind.’

api ca kho cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ dānaṁ deti.

laṅkāra – ‘ornament’ / ‘decoration’

parikkhāraṁ – “equipment,” “support,” or “requisite.”

When we give thinking ‘This is an adornment and requisite for the mind.’, doesn’t that mean we are expecting something in return? It seems like a self-centered thought. Are we supposed to give with the reason and expectation to have a better mind to comprehend the dhamma? It seems like the sutta supports this, as it is a ‘very fruitful gift’.

[Lal]

1. “cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ” = citta alaṅkāra citta parikkhāra; when combining two words, one ending in a and the other starting with a, the combined word has a “long a” or ā.

So, the Pali word there is “alaṅkāra.” The mundane meaning can be ‘ornament’ / ‘decoration’ but here, it refers to a citta devoid of defilements and also with comprehension of Tilakkhana/PS. 

• parikkhāra means more like “pre-requisite.”
• P.S. “Prerequisite” emphasizes a preceding condition or order, whereas “Requisite” speaks to the fundamental necessity of something.

2. Thus, “api ca kho cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ dānaṁ deti” conveys the idea: “instead (compared to the dāna in the previous verses), with a “cleansed mind.” 

3. The same is stated in the “Paṭhamadāna Sutta (AN 8.31).”

• The word “parikkhāra” is correctly translated as “pre-requisite” in the “Subha Sutta (MN 99).”

[pathfinder]

Oh wow so it is literally translated to : “With a pre-requisite of a decorated mind” = with a pre-requisite of a mind that understands tilakkhana/ a clear mind. Thank you!

[pathfinder]

I asked ChatGPT: 

parikkhāra means more like “pre-requisite.”<br />
P.S. “Prerequisite” emphasizes a preceding condition or order, whereas “Requisite” speaks to the fundamental necessity of something.<br />
2. Thus, “api ca kho cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ dānaṁ deti” conveys the idea: “instead (compared to the dāna in the previous verses), with a “cleansed mind.”<br />
Literally, it can mean “With a pre-requisite of a decorated mind”.

Do you think this makes grammatical sense?

ChatGPT:

Your interpretation, “with a pre-requisite of a decorated mind”, for “api ca kho cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ dānaṁ deti”, raises an interesting perspective, but there are some grammatical considerations that need to be examined.

Grammatical Considerations:

1. Compound Structure:<br />
   The compound “cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ” is in the accusative singular form (as indicated by the ending -aṁ). In Pali, the accusative case is typically used for the direct object of the verb. In this sentence, it seems like it functions as the object of the verb “deti” (to give). So, grammatically, it is the “mental adornments and mental requisites” that are being given (as part of the dāna).<br />
   For your interpretation to mean “with a prerequisite of a decorated mind,” you would expect “cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ” to be in the instrumental case (which conveys accompaniment or means). The instrumental case (e.g., “cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhārena”) would suggest the idea of “with” or “by means of” something, which would be more appropriate for expressing a condition like a “prerequisite.”
2. Use of “Api ca kho”:
   • “Api ca kho” introduces the sentence with emphasis. It suggests that what follows is an important point or something being added to what was previously mentioned, and often sets up a contrast or continuation. This supports the idea of the phrase contrasting with something before (e.g., a different kind of dāna).
3. Meaning of “Parikkhāra”:
   • As you pointed out, “parikkhāra” can carry the sense of “prerequisite” or “necessary equipment”. It refers to something essential that prepares or furnishes the mind, aligning with your idea of a “prerequisite” for a cleansed or decorated mind.
4. “Deti” (to give):
   • The verb “deti” makes “cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ” the object of what is being given. If we follow strict Pali grammar, this suggests that what is being given is the “mental adornments and requisites” themselves, not that they are a condition for the act of giving.

Alternative Reading for Your Interpretation:

If you want the phrase to mean “with a prerequisite of a decorated mind”, the compound “cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ” would ideally be in the instrumental case as mentioned earlier, like “cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhārena”. This would clearly mark the phrase as a condition or accompaniment rather than the object of the verb.

Does it make grammatical sense?

In its current form, “api ca kho cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ dānaṁ deti” makes grammatical sense in Pali as “he/she gives a gift of mental adornments and mental requisites.” However, for your interpretation of “with a prerequisite of a decorated mind” to work, the phrase would need to use the instrumental case to indicate that the “mental adornments and requisites” are a prerequisite for giving, rather than what is being given.

Summary:

• Current grammatical structure: It suggests that “mental adornments and requisites” are what is being given as the object of dāna.
• Your interpretation (“with a prerequisite of a decorated mind”): For this meaning, the compound would need to be in the instrumental case to show that these adornments are a condition for the giving, not the object itself.

So while the idea of your interpretation is insightful, it requires a change in case to align grammatically with that meaning.

—

The grammatical analysis makes sense to me, but it is only based on my basic understanding of Pali from youtube. Do you agree with it? And do you think it is important to take into account the grammar of the words when translating it?<br />
<br />

For reference, the word cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ ends with aṁ, which makes it an object. <br />
Dutiyā Vibatthi (Object, Accusative), eg (Buddho dhammaṃ deseti) – The Buddha (subject) gives (verb) Dhamma (object)<br />
So ‘api ca kho cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāraṁ dānaṁ deti’ means he/she gives a gift of mental adornments and mental requisites (object)<br />
<br />
Chat GPT is arguing that it should be Tatiyā Vibatthi (By/ through/ with), eg ahaṃ (I) hatthena (by the/with the hand) likhāmi (write)- I write by the/ with the hand. If we want to stick to the intrepretation of ‘he gives with a clear mind’

[Lal]

I am glad to see that ChatGPT can analyze Pali grammar!

• But I don’t understand the point of this “analysis.” Does it change the meaning of the sutta (in a way different than I explained)?

[pathfinder]

It does change the meaning! The sentence becomes ‘giving a gift of mental adornation and mental pre-requisites’ instead of ‘with a pre-requisite of a clear mind’. Meaning ‘we should give dhamma’ instead of previous interpretation ‘we should give with a clear mind’

ChatGPT:

• Current grammatical structure: It suggests that “mental adornments and requisites” are what is being given as the object of dāna.
• Your interpretation (“with a prerequisite of a decorated mind”): For this meaning, the compound would need to be in the instrumental case to show that these adornments are a condition for the giving, not the object itself.

I know ChatGPT’s interpretation is less in line with the whole sutta, but grammatically it is more accurate

[Lal]

You wrote: “The sentence becomes ‘giving a gift of mental adornation and mental pre-requisites’ instead of ‘with a pre-requisite of a clear mind’. Meaning ‘we should give dhamma’ instead of previous interpretation ‘we should give with a clear mind'”

• Is the sutta about “giving dhamma” to another? In other words, is it about teaching Dhamma to others?
• My point was that the merits of giving depend on the giver’s mindset. I think the sutta also tried to convey that idea in the context of that sutta.
• Of course, giving Dhamma is the best giving!

[pathfinder]

Lal: My point was that the merits of giving depend on the giver’s mindset. I think the sutta also tried to convey that idea in the context of that sutta.

Yep! So here we actually find a contradiction between grammatical analysis and actual meaning. Do you take into account grammar when looking at suttas?

[Lal]

First of all, ChatGPT learns “grammar” from what is fed to it by its programmers. See “Pāli Dictionaries – Are They Reliable?“

• Pali grammar is a complex subject. I don’t want to get into a discussion on that. Of course, I am not discouraging anyone from learning Pali (learning the meanings of critical Pali words is essential), but relying too much on “adopted grammar rules” could become a problem. 
• I suggest trying to understand a verse’s meaning in the context of a given sutta. 
• Of course, each person can decide how to proceed. 

As I see it, AI bots like ChatGPT are great resources but have limits. They are good at summarizing information. They can look through all available resources and summarize them. But we need to be careful because their capabilities are limited by the resources available to them (fed by their programmers).”Artificial intelligence” (AI) is a misnomer; there cannot be any “intelligence” in a computer program!

[pathfinder]

Thank you! 

On a side note, in  “Pāli Dictionaries – Are They Reliable?“

Post: Grammar rules are bypassed in some cases. That is clear in verses “Buddhaṃ Saranam gacchāmi,” “Dhamman Saranam gacchāmi,” for example.

• There is no subject in the above verse. The first, of course, means, “I take refuge in the Buddha,” but “I” is missing in “Buddhaṃ Saranam gacchāmi.” It is just understood.

If I am not wrong, the I is included in gacchāmi, based on its conjugation, so it is not entirely necessary to add the pronoun ‘I’. In this case, a literal translation would be: ‘Buddha, the Refuge (Saranṃ), (I) go to (gacchāmi)’

I have attached a conjugation table for reference, each word can be conjugated differently based on the pronoun.

This is similar to Passāmi loke sadhane manusse – (I) see rich people in the world, in Raṭṭhapālasutta where the I is not included.

This is my understanding of reflected languages as well, eg spanish, french. And only based on my basic understanding of Pāli! Please feel free to correct me, I have only started learning.

[Lal]

Yes. You are correct in that case. I revised it as follows:

3. Pāli is a phonetic language. The Tipiṭaka was faithfully transmitted for hundreds of years because verses were formulated for easy memorization. Grammar rules are different in Pāli. That is clear in verses “Buddhaṃ Saranam gacchāmi” and “Dhamman Saranam gacchāmi,” for example.

• There is no apparent subject in the above verse. The first, of course, means, “I take refuge in the Buddha,” but “I” is missing in “Buddhaṃ Saranam gacchāmi”  because it is taken into account as “Buddhaṃ Saranam gacchāmi.”

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pathfinder

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