- This topic has 12 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 1 week ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
-
Yes. It is.
- See the first discourse in “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses.”
-
-
That’s a good point. “Anatta” refers to a characteristic of nature: Worldly things (and any perceived pleasures) are devoid of any substance (unfruitful) and have dangerous consequences for the future.
- Also, “sukha” is not a feeling (vedana). It is the complete absence of suffering.
- The post “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World” explains it: “Nibbāna sukha” is NOT a feeling. It is the absence of suffering. The closest analogy is the following: Suppose someone has had a chronic headache from birth. One day, it is cured, and he feels a great relief. That relief was not a new vedanā but the absence of “dukkha vedanā.”
-
Sir Lal : “Nibbāna sukha” is NOT a feeling. It is the absence of suffering.
Me : This statement remind me this sutta !
At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground.
Ekaṁ samayaṁ āyasmā sāriputto rājagahe viharati veḷuvane kalandakanivāpe.
There he addressed the mendicants:
Tatra kho āyasmā sāriputto bhikkhū āmantesi:
“Reverends, extinguishment is bliss!
“sukhamidaṁ, āvuso, nibbānaṁ.
Extinguishment is bliss!”
Sukhamidaṁ, āvuso, nibbānan”ti.
When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him,
Evaṁ vutte, āyasmā udāyī āyasmantaṁ sāriputtaṁ etadavoca:
“But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”
“kiṁ panettha, āvuso sāriputta, sukhaṁ yadettha natthi vedayitan”ti?
“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it.
“Etadeva khvettha, āvuso, sukhaṁ yadettha natthi vedayitaṁ.
- This is a very good sutta where Venerable Arahant Sāriputta further explains that the pleasures of Kāma loka, Rūpa loka and Arupa loka are sufferings.They are different from Nibbāna. The explanation given is that an arahant who attains nirodha samapatti is free from suffering. This is noteworthy because Venerable Arahant Sāriputta, who is a pannavimutta, discusses Nirodha Samapatti. He chose one day to experience all the jhānas and samapattis leading up to Nirodha.
- I would like to address a controversial point regarding the Pannavimuttas Arahants. It is often assumed that they are unable to develop jhānas, samapattis, and nirodha samapatti. I will present evidence that may contradict this prevailing belief.
- See the Anupadasutta
Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, he entered and remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
And he emerged from that attainment with mindfulness.
So tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahati.
Then he contemplated the phenomena of that attainment that had passed, ceased, and perished:
So tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahitvā ye dhammā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā te dhamme samanupassati:
‘So it seems that these phenomena, not having been, come to be; and having come to be, they flit away.’
‘evaṁ kirame dhammā ahutvā sambhonti, hutvā paṭiventī’ti.
Regarding those phenomena, he meditated without going near or going away, independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits.
So tesu dhammesu anupāyo anapāyo anissito appaṭibaddho vippamutto visaṁyutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond.’
So ‘atthi uttari nissaraṇan’ti pajānāti.
Repeated practice of that confirmed this for him.
Tabbahulīkārā atthitvevassa hoti.
Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he entered and remained in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, his defilements came to an end.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati. Paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.
- In the Dīghanakhautta, Venerable Arahant Sāriputta became an arahant by listening to a discourse from Lord Buddha without attaining any jhānas.
Now at that time Venerable Sāriputta was standing behind the Buddha fanning him.
Tena kho pana samayena āyasmā sāriputto bhagavato piṭṭhito ṭhito hoti bhagavantaṁ bījayamāno.
Then he thought,
Atha kho āyasmato sāriputtassa etadahosi:
“It seems the Buddha speaks of giving up and letting go all these things through direct knowledge.”
“tesaṁ tesaṁ kira no bhagavā dhammānaṁ abhiññā pahānamāha, tesaṁ tesaṁ kira no sugato dhammānaṁ abhiññā paṭinissaggamāhā”ti.
Reflecting like this, Venerable Sāriputta’s mind was freed from the defilements by not grasping.
Iti hidaṁ āyasmato sāriputtassa paṭisañcikkhato anupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimucci.
- In the Theragatha, he states that he attained arahantship by listening to a Dhamma discourse.
“The Blessed One, the Buddha, the seer
Aññassa bhagavā buddho,
was teaching Dhamma to another.
dhammaṁ desesi cakkhumā;
As he taught the Dhamma,
Dhamme desiyamānamhi,
I lent an ear to get the meaning.
sotamodhesimatthiko.
My listening wasn’t wasted:
Taṁ me amoghaṁ savanaṁ,
I’m freed, without defilements.”
vimuttomhi anāsavo.
“Not for knowledge of past lives,
Neva pubbenivāsāya,
nor even for clairvoyance;
napi dibbassa cakkhuno;
not for psychic powers, or reading the minds of others,
Cetopariyāya iddhiyā,
nor for knowing people’s passing away and being reborn;
cutiyā upapattiyā;
not for purifying the power of clairaudience,
Sotadhātuvisuddhiyā,
did I have any wish.”
- He also confirms that he does not desire to develop iddhi powers. However, arahants who attain Nirodha samapatti automatically possess these powers, and it is beyond their control (Anatta).
- Achieving Nirodha Samapatti is similar to learning how to run; once a person knows how to run, they automatically know how to walk. To reach Nirodha Samapatti, one must have perfected all the jhānas and arupavacaras samapattis. Additionally, to attain iddhis, one must have mastered all four jhānas to perfection.
- All the evidence supports the idea that pannavimutta arahants who wish to develop jhanas, arupavacara samapatti, iddhis, and Nirodha samapatti can do so through focused concentration. It is important to remember that concentration and the removal of the five obstacles are essential for achieving jhānas and arupavacara samapattis. No being is more focused than an arahant, who has not only removed the five obstacles but has completely eradicated them. Most pannavimutta arahants simply choose not to pursue the development of these attainements and focus on the pure citta. Venerable Arahant Sāriputta did develop them to analyze them in detail and understand their causes. It is no surprise that Lord Buddha imparted the Abhidhamma to him.
-
I noticed a contradiction. We agree that when one attains Nirodha samapatti, one automatically becomes an arahant, correct?
This is sutta central explaining : The fortnight between realizing stream-entry while still a student of Sañjaya (Kd 1:23.5.6) and arahantship while overhearing the Buddha teach Dīghanakha (MN 74:5.1).
- How can he become an arahant again if he has already realized nirodha samapatti? The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that he developed nirodha samapatti after becoming an arahant.
-
Thank you, Jittananto.
“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it.”
- Most people do not realize the incessant suffering in the lower realms (apāyās) where a sattā (anyone below the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage) spends a lot of time in the rebirth process!
- Even in the human realm, our minds are stressed out most of the time. This becomes especially evident after reaching the Anagami/Sakadagami stages. In several suttas, Anagamis’ utterance of “aho sukhaṁ” (“how blissful it is”) is mentioned.
- See, for example, “Bhaddiya Sutta (Ud 2.10).”
P.S. Jittananto’s following comment above needs to be further clarified: “This is sutta central explaining : The fortnight between realizing stream-entry while still a student of Sañjaya (Kd 1:23.5.6) and arahantship while overhearing the Buddha teach Dīghanakha (MN 74:5.1).”
- Where in MN 74 those statements appear?
-
You are welcome, Sir !
Sir Lal : Where in MN 74 those statements appear?
- Click on the fourth blue asterisk In the Anupadasutta.
-
There is no mention of nirodha samapatti there. When clicking on the asterisk, it says the following:
- Ven. Sariputta attained the Sotapanna stage while listening to a single verse by Ven. Assaji (at that time he was a disciple of Sanjaya).
- Then he abandoned Sanjaya as his teacher and became a follower with the Buddha (became a bhikkhu.)
- A fortnight later, he attained the Arahantship.
-
What I mean is that the sutta says that Venerable Arahant Sāriputta practiced jhānas for a fortnight. At the end of this fortnight, he reached Nirodha Samapatti. That means he became an arahant. However, in the Dīghanakhautta, he became an arahant by reflecting on the discourse of Lord Buddha. Sutta’s central statement is a contradiction because it says that he realized nirodha samapatti between the time he became sotāpanna and the time he became an arahant. The logical explanation is that he practiced jhānas and nirodha samapatti after becoming an arahant.
-
For a fortnight he practiced discernment of phenomena one by one.
sāriputto, bhikkhave, aḍḍhamāsaṁ anupadadhammavipassanaṁ vipassati.
And this is how he did it.
Tatridaṁ, bhikkhave, sāriputtassa anupadadhammavipassanāya hoti.
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, sāriputto vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
And he distinguished the phenomena of the first absorption one by one: placing and keeping and rapture and bliss and unification of mind; contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and application of mind.
Ye ca paṭhame jhāne dhammā vitakko ca vicāro ca pīti ca sukhañca cittekaggatā ca, phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṁ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṁ sati upekkhā manasikāro—tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti.
-
1. First, it is a good idea to link a sutta in the following format, where each verse is allocated a marker: “Anupada Sutta (MN 111).”
- If a Sutta Central sutta does not show the markers, type #1.1 at the end of the URL, and the sutta will be reloaded with the markers. For example, the URL in the link you gave has “script =latin” at the end. Just add “#1.1” to it to become “script =latin#1.1”
- Also see the URL in my link above to get the idea.
- Once you get that format, click on any specific marker number, and the URL will indicate that marker. (You can also manually change the marker number in the URL.)
- It will be helpful for EVERYONE to use this format, so we can refer to marker numbers to point out specific verses.
2. I set the link to highlight the start of your quote in your comment above (“For a fortnight he practiced discernment of phenomena one by one.”)
- @marker 3.1 it says he attained the first jhana (referred to as “first absorption” in the translation) “..paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
- @marker 5.1: He attained the second jhana and so on until @marker 19.1 it says Ven. Sariputta attained saññāvedayitanirodha: “..saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
- That is when he became an ubhatovimutta Arahant!
- That sequence of events (where he went through all the jhanas and samapattis to get to nirodaha samapatti at the Arahanthood) happened two weeks (a fortnight) after he attained the Sotapanna stage.
3. So, I think you are confused in some way.
- If I missed anything, please refer to the relevant verse numbers/markers when explaining.
-
I had mistakenly provided a wrong link in the above comment. It should be “Anupada Sutta (MN 111).”
- I just corrected it in the above comment, too.
- My apologies for the confusion.
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.