[Tobias G]

This topic is a big concern for me now.
While I turn away from worldly things, there is still so much to maintain for the family. There are demands and desires from my wife and kids. Even if they just want time to spend with me, I feel a pull away to seclusion and contemplation. I don’t need to talk (except about Dhamma) or to have any other distraction. It feels like a waste of time. Also I lose desires and cravings for all this stuff in the world. Niramisa sukha is in control.
Can anyone tell how to handle such contradictions?

[Lal]

Thanks, Tobias, for sharing your experience with everyone.

Just a bit of background on Mr. Tobias Große from Heilbad Heiligenstadt, Germany. Of course, I received his permission to reveal his identity.

We have been in contact for over a year. His wife and children are also fully engaged and it is heartwarming to see how much they have advanced. He recently started the German puredhamma.net website: https://puredhamma/de.

He had mentioned to me a bit about his experience a couple of times, but it seems that his desire for solitude is getting stronger.

I have had a similar experience too, but mine has been more gradual. Even though my children are not engaged in Dhamma activities, they are employed and they have been living away from us for several years (college and then employment). My wife has been active (not to the same level as me, since she is still working), and we have been able to make a reasonably good transition to where we are today.

So, Tobias, I am glad that your whole family is engaged. Otherwise, it could be more difficult. But since each individual is different, it is good to keep an eye on how each person is responding to your changes.

There are accounts in the Tipitaka that have described how certain individuals responded upon attaining various levels of magga phala. Some became bhikkhus, but there were many who remained as “householders” and were able to manage “both sides”. I am doing the latter.

In my case, I try to accommodate especially my two children (they are adults now), and try not to let them miss anything that they expect from a father, growing up in the United States. Luckily, they don’t have many demands that could really disturb my “state of mind”. We try to get together whenever possible. My wife and I sold our house and live in an apartment, even though we may buy a small house next year.

I was active in many “worldly things” even before retirement. For example, I had been trading stocks and options for a long time. After retirement, I got into futures trading for a brief time, at which time I also started reading on many subjects. But my growing interest in Buddha Dhamma gradually diminished all those activities over a year or two. When I comprehended Tilakkhana in late 2013/early 2014, I gave up all those, but I kept some trading accounts to manage what I had just with stocks.

By 2016 I had lost desire to “own material things”. It became a struggle to even keep an eye on trading accounts, and I consolidated them and just bought some selected stocks so that I don’t need to monitor them. Nowadays, I look at those accounts couple of times a year, as apart of my obligation to my family.

Now I realize that I have gradually lost contact with many of my friends from old days. Instead now I communicate with many on this forum regularly. It was not intentional and just happened. This is a good illustration for me how people with “same gathi” are attracted to each other, and to activities that they like.

This is also why the statement, “dhammo ha ve rakkati dhammacari” or “Dhamma will guide one in the right direction” is true. I was guided away from worldly activities, and also from people who are still engaged in such activities, etc. None of this was done forcefully. They “just happened” over time. Another thing is that my children have changed too, even without them realizing, and even though they are not really “practicing Buddha Dhamma”. They rarely go to movies even though they live on their own. I notice that they have friends of similar likings. They like to go on hikes and travel rather than going to concerts, movies, etc. I am hoping that they would get more interested in Buddha Dhamma with time.

I did not mean this to get so lengthy. But I hope you can get an idea of what happened in my case. Each person is different and things will happen differently. In fact, Tobias, you seem to be moving at a faster pace than me.

It is also important to note that one could attain the Sotapanna stage without undergoing a drastic change in lifestyle, and then stay like that too. For example, Visaka attained the Sotapanna stage at an early age, and lived the life of a wealthy person. She got married and had 22 children. The Buddha said that she would have eleven more births as a human (remember that could be within even a single bhava). That means she would not attain even the Sakadagami stage during that whole time.

Mahanama was another wealthy person who attained the Sotapanna stage and remained active in his businesses. There are accounts of Anagamis also who chose not to become bhikkhus. On the other hand, there were individuals who could not remain “householders”.

Most life changes happen in the transition from the Sotapanna to Sakadagami stage. Even more drastic changes take place on the way to the Anagami stage. Because one’s mind would get rid of all attachments to the kama loka, i.e., craving/desire for food, sex, etc,). There is no point in forcibly trying to remove desire for sex, for example. That cannot be done anyway. It is only when one realizes that the “Nibbanic bliss” is better than any sense experience, that the mind rejects any such desires. So, it is best if both partners lose the desire for sex over time. Even though it cannot happen at the same time, having the understanding about the state of each other helps a lot.

By the way, “Nibbanic bliss” is not a “vedana” that can be felt. It is the state of the “cooled mind”. It can be compared to the relief one feels when a long-lasting headache finally goes away.

I am a firm believer in “dhammo ha ve rakkati dhammacari” because that has been my experience. If one follows the Path with determination, one will be guided in the right direction so that it will benefit oneself AND those who rely on oneself (family members).

[Tobias G]

Hello Lal,
thanks for your open words! I see that we share some experience on the path.

As I have to maintain wordly things my mind gets distracted every day again. I have the feeling that the contemplation goes not so deep when I have to sort out daily issues first. Of course my mind is already calmer compared to e.g. 6 months before.

Also I realized that I want results on the path too fast. That is a gathi and may go away as I proceed…

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Tobias,

As much as you wanted to get rid of Kama tanha, you might have exerted too much on yourself. You might have wanted to take on an ariyan identity so badly, which is not a bad thing at all. Thus, bhava tanha. But sometimes while we take on one identity, we are also taking on an equal and opposite identity. i.e You do not want to go back to your old ways of acting like a putujjana. Hence, you might also be attached to vibhava tanha.

In Samyutta Nikāya 1 – Crossing The Flood
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn1.1

A devata asked the Blessed one…

“How, dear sir, did you cross the flood?”

“By not halting, friend, and by not straining I crossed the flood.”

“But how is it, dear sir, that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?”

“When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank; but when I struggled, then I got swept away. It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood.”

No doubt when we are on the path, we will face many obstacles. I would think when we are called upon to perform our obligations and duties as a householder, just put on that householder hat and do our job dutifully without any transgression in our Dhamma practice.

Just my humble 2 cents worth.

[Vince]

Hello Tobias, I’m glad that you started this topic.

Even though our living situations are different (I’m an adult working part time and still living at home), it sounds like we are struggling with the same issue.

I was a samanera for a little over a year at local Thai monastery, not too far from my house. Shortly after I ordained I stumbled across this website and knew it was something special just after browsing a few posts. Several months later I started to really dig in to all of the different topics, reading as much as I could. I believe I was able to gain a magga-phala during that time, thanks to reading Mr. Lal’s explanations and having the opportunity to live the monastic lifestyle.

I disrobed back in March and came back home in July of this year. The disenchantment with worldly things and desire for seclusion is indeed a struggle. I felt a very strong sense of alienation upon disrobing and returning home and didn’t think that anybody would be able to understand what I was going through, so I was happy when Mr. Lal said he would be starting a discussion forum.

For me, the struggle isn’t in raising a family but in finding some way to make a living. Before I ordained I was a freelance musician for about two and a half years and now that I’m back home I’ve started gigging again. I’m reminded of an individual that Mr. Lal mentioned at one point, who said that the more she meditated the more her peace of mind grew, but at the same time her interest in her old hobbies such as reading and listening to music diminished. I’ve experienced a similar effect; I used to have a real burn to do what I did for living and got a lot of satisfaction from it, but now having to “hold it up” as mode of living feels more like a burden. It’s not that I dislike it, but I just don’t care as much anymore.

On top of that I felt frustrated/depressed due to not being able to experience the strong mental clarity and niramisa sukha that I regularly felt living at the monastery, which gets quickly covered up by the relatively heavier sankhara of a layperson’s life.

I think it’s a matter of course that we must feel these things if we gain Path knowledge and still live a layperon’s life. Even though we don’t feel as strong a pull toward sensual/worldly things, it’s probably not possible to drop everything all at once.

[vilaskadival]

Namaste to all,

First of all, thanks to Lal for creating the site and now the forum. Wish him a stage of Arahat in this very life time as I feel he is helping all those who seek Buddha Dhamma.

Nice topic by Tobias and I have had experiences starting from 2013 where slowly with understanding of Buddha’s tilakhana and what started as a kindle slowly merged into knowing and experiencing more and more.

With that there was change in my attitude which my wife was the first person to notice and then my son also got interested. He is now in a college and we discuss on Dhamma topic everyday between all 3 of us.

As Lal has stated correctly that “dhammo ha ve rakkati dhammacari”, it has practically happened in me where there is withdrawal of senses from worldly affairs.

From my childhood days, never was interested much with movies and other stuff and even interaction with others have changed drastically from 2013 and always in look out for discussion on Dhamma else I’m just silent observer of all that is happening.

I feel that due to good karma if the remaining family members are also contributing to Dhamma discussions and practice, it enhances the experience which is the case with mine, something similar of Tobias.

I try to just be like a dew drop on lotus while being with people and profession (not working on full time job now after I moved into Dhamma) so that others do not feel lost in my discussion while I maintain the balance of thoughts and words ensuring that I don’t get carried away either by just being there yet withdrawn and as a spectator.

Right now, developing the art to balance between worldly events and dhamma where-in if people are genuinely interested in Dhamma, then I speak in length else will just engage to limited extent on worldly aspects relating to one or other profession so that the energy is conserved in experiencing dhamma.

With increase inclination to Dhamma, many people have moved away including near and dear ones and friends. This is expected since the gati takes care accordingly.

I live in Bangalore, India and engaged with Software development as a consultant (if anyone refers to me to help on their projects) along with showing Himalayan regions to people especially the Wheel of Life (patichasamutpada) depicted in Tibetan monasteries.

[Author]

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