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Hello sir lal.
Sir, can you please tell me how to practice dhamma so that I can attain stream entry in this life?
I take 5 precepts daily and try to keep them. I also try to follow 4 uposatha days and try to keep 8 precepts during those 4 days. I daily chant, taking refuge in triple jewels.My concern is practice and not the theoretical part. I understand breathing meditation can lead to temporary calmness and possibly anariya jhana. So I am discouraged to practice even that as I want to be arya as soon as possible. Because I fear lower realms and I fully accept the fact that puthujana who didn’t remove defilements from his mind will inevitably fall in lower realms. This fact scares me to the core. I permanently want to eradicate causes to be born in lower realms. What should I do sir? Plz help..
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Hi Saurabagh! My advice for you is to surround yourself with noble people and carefully listen to sermons on the Dhamma. After listening, meditate on the teachings and apply them in your daily life. It’s said that reaching the sotāpanna stage is impossible without the guidance of someone who has reached at least the first magga phala stage. Sotapanna has different meanings—it can refer to entering the flow of liberation or listening wisely. “Sota” refers to the ability to listen and “Panna” refers to wisdom. Becoming sotāpanna is achieved through attentive listening, not by sight(for example reading).
This website is designed for those who have already attained the sotāpanna stage and wish to continue progressing. For those who have not yet reached this stage, it is important to listen to teachings and associate with people who have at least attained sotāpanna. A sotāpanna is self-reliant and can progress independently. Regardless of their actions, they will reach the stage of arahant within 7 lifetimes. However, it’s important to note that they will not engage in extreme bad behaviour. See Ratanasutta. Additionally, a sotāpanna who associates with someone who has a higher level is likely to progress more quickly than if they were to progress alone. The Maha Sangha is available to support us, but ultimately, it’s up to each individual to choose their own path. However, it is impossible to become sotāpanna alone!
The best place to find noble individuals is within the Maha Sangha (monastic community). Becoming sotāpanna is not solely achieved through self-study and practice. If that were the case, one would only need to take refuge in the Buddha and the Dhamma, rendering the Sangha unnecessary. See Taking refuge in the Sangha involves listening to the sermons given by noble individuals and following their guidance. If any of the “jewels” (Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) is missing, Nibbāna remains unattainable, which is why we take refuge in the Triple Gem. There are monks from the Jethavaranama Monastery in Sri Lanka who share sermons on their YouTube channels and hold private meetings with lay people. This monastery was founded by a disciple of Venerable Waharaka Thero. If you’re interested, I can refer you to them and they will do a personal online meeting!
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Hello Saurabh, I think you have (or had) some wrong ideas about “practicing Buddha Dhamma” (like many others.)
1. “Practicing Buddha Dhamma” starts with understanding Buddha’s teachings. The “core teaching” is that the world of 31 realms is associated with unending suffering at various levels. Even though there can be long stretches of “happiness,” suffering dominates in the long run.
- The critical point is that comprehension of “Buddha’s worldview” at a preliminary level leads to the first stage of Nibbana, where rebirths in the apayas will stop.
- When one starts understanding Buddha’s teachings, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami (meaning one is “on the way to be free from the apayas.”)
- However, “moral living” is essential to this learning process. It is difficult for a mind burdened with immoral thoughts to understand Buddha’s teachings, so you should keep up with that aspect; it is good that you are already doing that.
2. The difficult part is figuring out where to start. It varies widely from person to person. I do not know the level of understanding of people who read the website. So, one should scan the various sections and figure out “where to start.”
- I suggest scanning through the following sections first: “Three Levels of Practice,” “Living Dhamma,” and “Bhāvanā (Meditation).”
3. The following summary could help understand the fundamental axioms of Buddha Dhamma.
- The First Noble Truth points out that there is a rebirth process with no discernible beginning. Each “sentient being” endures much more suffering in the apayas than any fleeting (on the scale of the rebirth process) happiness while born infrequently in the “good realms.”
- The second Noble Truth points out that our immoral deeds are the root cause of suffering (i.e., the cause of rebirth in lower realms). Why do we engage in immoral actions? We believe/perceive that happiness is in external “mind-pleasing things” of the world (persons of opposite sex, houses, cars, money, etc.) Therefore, our future suffering is dictated by how much we are attached to “worldly pleasures.” Another way to say the same is “saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.” Thus, understanding pañcupādānakkhandhā is critical; see “Essence of Buddhism – In the First Sutta.”
(At a deeper level (which is what my current weekly posts are focused on), the belief/perception (“distorted/false sanna) that happiness is in external “mind-pleasing things” of the world is wrong. You can get there gradually and understand that aspect. ) - How our cravings for “mind-pleasing things” in the world lead to suffering is analyzed in Paticca Samuppada.
- Once one understands Paticca Samuppada, one’s understanding of the foundations of Buddha Dhamma becomes solidified, and one’s faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (Nobel Persons; not all bhikkhus are Noble Persons) becomes unshakeable. That is when one attains the Sotapanna stage.
- However, that first stage of understanding is not enough to attain the higher stages of Nibbana (Sakadagami, Anagami, and Arahant). But as you correctly stated, your goal is to reach the Sotapanna stage.
4. Therefore, it is necessary to continue living a moral life (as you are doing now.) However, learning the “Buddha’s worldview” is essential to understanding how suffering is embedded in this world of 31 realms. You can also scan through the “Origin of Life” section if that approach makes sense.
- Each person is different. So, explore some of the ideas suggested above. Take your time. Feel free to ask questions as you proceed. You can ask your questions in this thread to keep track of your progress. Of course, others are also welcome to comment or ask related questions on this thread.
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Hi brother Saurabh, I don’t know what level your understanding is at, maybe it is higher as I think.
But the point I want to comment on is your fear of being born in the apaya realm.
In my opinion, this fear should not create a thick wall to move from Sila lokiya to lokutarra. I mean, you do good because there are benefits or rewards… In my understanding, this is the result of reflecting on Mr. Lal’s writing. The quality of sotapanna is truly understanding the fruitlessness of violating morals because it will lead to greater suffering.
Then automatically the precepts will be maintained at all times until the bad traits are changed, so that the condition of being born in the apaya to bear fruit no longer exists.
For example, in this life, if you have a tendency to get angry you create conditions for you to end up in prison in the future (because being angry can make you hit people and so on).
My suggestion, often discuss it / read / reflect on the concept of dhamma.. Maybe in this digital age, making friends with noble people is getting simpler, like this website, if there are no noble people in your area.
Meditate often on anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha or paticca samuppada, the 4 noble truths from the moment your eyes open until you fall asleep (it is difficult but you will get used to it if you do it continuously)
Try to practice the 8 fold path as much as you can..
There will be a day when You understand and know that this kind of action will close the condition to the apaya realm and know the taste of nibbana, that moment is not made up, so that your view of every moment in this world is very clear about anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, and will followed by your behavior or tendency to avoid moral or immoral actions based on kilesa..
I also want to ask for opinions from Mr. Lal and friends here, my thought complications:
In recent times I have been contemplating about asankhata and sankhata, in my opinion contemplating the concepts of the Buddha’s dhamma is a form of meditation for Lokutarra understanding because in the mind, we contemplate things that are rooted in VIJJA. while beings are born in samsara because they have thoughts about worldly concepts (conditioned) in the paticca samuppada pattern that is rooted in Avijja..
When continuously contemplating the concept of the Buddha’s dhamma is done, one will gain awareness to reduce attachment to world so that the shackles of the mind will collapse until reaching arahanthood..
My weakness since thinking about this concept I became lazy to meditate formally.
The advantage is that in the past from opening my eyes until falling asleep maybe my mind was 0.1% alert to bad thoughts, words, and deeds. But now it has increased maybe 2-5% in 17 hours..
Hopefully Mr. @Lal will comment on my complicated thoughts, is it deviant? Thank you🙏🙏🙏
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Waisaka wrote: “In recent times, I have been contemplating about asankhata and sankhata; in my opinion, contemplating concepts of the Buddha’s dhamma is a form of meditation for Lokutarra understanding because that is contemplating things that are rooted in VIJJA. Beings are born in samsara because they have thoughts about worldly concepts (conditioned) in the Paticca Samuppada patterns rooted in avijja..
When continuously contemplating the concept of the Buddha’s dhamma, one will gain awareness and reduce attachment to the world so that the shackles of the mind will collapse until reaching arahanthood.
My weakness since thinking about this concept is that I became too lazy to meditate formally.”
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I revised your comment (more in the above quote) to understand your question. I recommend using word processing software, which I have also recommended to others. There are many free online software packages, such as Google Docs.
Anyway, can you describe precisely what you contemplate by giving an example for both asankhata and sankhata? I would like to understand where the issue is. Take your time and write it using the software as suggested above. Getting one’s ideas across can be difficult, and we must try our best. Otherwise, it can lead to confusion.
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This is what one Sangha taught.
1.Always think about the Dhamma.
2.Spend as much time as you can with stream-enterers.
3.Serve other people whenever you have the chance even if it means you can’t do something you planned to do or is an inconvenience.
4.When you have an evil thought, STOP, and say ‘Rather than doing this evil thing I will glorify the Buddha,’ then say ‘Namo Buddhaya’ 10 times.
5.Do not use the words ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ or ‘mine’ unless you have to whether with voice or thought.
6.Notice when you experience love, joy, peace, patience, letting-go, faith, self-control, goodness, gentleness and be grateful for them.
7.Give things away. Food, clothes, furniture, books, medicine… Be very careful when giving away money.
8.Taste Nibbana. This is the most important step but it cannot be explained: it must be experienced.
Namo Buddhaya ☸️
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Good observations!
Regarding: “5. Do not use the words ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ or ‘mine’ unless you have to whether with voice or thought.”
- There is nothing wrong with using the ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ or ‘mine.’ We have to use those words to live in this world. Even the Buddha used those words.
- Instead, we need to try to control our greedy actions, which are based on the false view/idea/saññā of ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’, or ‘mine’, i.e., trying to acquire more and more worldly things. That “greedy mindset” also leads to our actions with anger.
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@Jittananto:
Thank you, respected sir, for offering me discussion with disciples of waharaka thero. I don’t know him but based on what little I’ve read about him on this website by sir Lal, I believe he was Ariya being possibly arahant!
And also thank you for the advice sir. I am trying to do most of what you said. I need more about in *how to apply?* Sir. That is what I am trying to find.I heard that breathing meditation helps in developing first four “bodhyangas”(factors of awakening)
1) Mindfulness (sati)
2) Keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya)
3) Energy (viriya)
4) Rapture or happiness (piti)and Vipassana insight meditation helps in developing remaining three “bodhyangas”
5) Calm (passaddhi)
6) Concentration (samadhi)
7) Equanimity (upekkha)My question is about that, what I’ve heard above…is it right? I hope to get answer from sir Lal and offcourse other’s answers also I’ll take heed of. (Forgive my English if I am sounding rude kindly sirs)
Also by breathing meditation I mean staying witness at the area of nostrils and being aware of nature of incoming and outgoing breath. Also I ‘feel’ jhana(anariya offcourse) is entered or starts when one reaches pitisukha and ignores breathing and then latches on that resultant pitisukha and (forcibly) going for ‘thoughtlessness’ in order to increase that pitisukha more and more ignoring and forgetting breathing. But in breathing meditation (as I know it) one is supposed to stay aware of breathing continuously, even if one attains pitisukha still one is supposed to stay aware of breathing only.
Pitisukha starts when, as one witnesses breathing with more and more awareness one detaches more and more from his thoughts and as one becomes more and more aware of breathing with lessening of distractions of thinking and thoughts, the breathing becomes smaller and smaller and fades away altogether after some time and gets replaced by pitisukha slowly slowly.
So in anariya jhana(by default) once concentration is attained with the help of focusing on breathing, and then one focuses on resultant pitisukha/rapture generated moving away from breathing (this is I believe a reason why it’s called anariya jhana as one clings).
In simpler words true breathing meditation involves continuous awareness of breathing and even pitisukha is to be treated as distraction. Because goal of breathing meditation is “taking in of purities/good qualities(good thoughts) and taking out/removing away/getting rid of impurities/good qualities(good thoughts)Now this is what I believe, plz correct me if I am wrong respected sirs. Am I right here?
Also if successful breathing meditation does not mean to forget breathing even if one reaches pitisukha, then is it right to say that this kind of breathing meditation helps in developing first four factors of awakening?
If yes then I should continue to (try to) do this kind of breathing-awareness meditation and if I am not right then I’ll have to change my ways I guess. Because I want to practice so that I’ll go closer to nibbana and possibly attaining stream-entry in this life only. Thank you sirs. Sorry I sometimes sound rude because my English isn’t that good.
P.S. – I have read too many variety things and now because of that I am too much confused and find it hard to know what is correct way of practicing dhamma to attain nibbana and what is not. I am seeking guidance here.
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Thank you for the explanation. My understanding is actually not higher or lower but I believe it is sort of messed up because of reading too much unnecessarily. It’s hard for me to know what is right way of practice (for me, of course) and what is not.
I daily try to reflect on impermanence and daily chant “triratna Vandana” (homage to triple jewel chant)
It’s actually very hard for me to follow all the things you told me in the above message, such as asubha and paticca samuppada. It’s overwhelming. I’ll try to start them gradually. Thank you!
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The quality of sotapanna is truly understanding the fruitlessness of violating morals because it will lead to greater suffering.
Wow this is what I want to reach sir. I feel whenever I try not to break precept I do that forcefully and not naturally. I wonder how and when moral behaviour becomes natural and not forced!
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Hello Saurabh,
I want to make two suggestions for commenting on the forum. This applies to everyone, so please don’t be offended.
1. It is unnecessary to quote the entire comment by another person.
- It is a good idea to quote part of a comment (like in your last comment above) and express your thoughts about it.
- In other cases, refer to someone’s quote by indicating his/her name (as I have revised your other two comments above.)
2. I have revised some of your comments above to make them a bit more clear.
- I recommend using word processing software, which I have also recommended to others. There are many free online software packages, such as Google Docs.
- It is hard enough to express our thoughts in words, so we need to make an effort to convey our ideas as clearly as possible. The message/ideas can get lost with grammar errors.
3. I will think about your comments/questions and will comment later today. In the meantime, I hope others will also provide their suggestions.
P.S. Sorry about the delay in replying. I live in a different time zone (United States). You are probably in India.
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It is a good idea to quote part of a comment (like in your last comment above) and express your thoughts about it.
In other cases, refer to someone’s quote by indicating his/her name (as I have revised your other two comments above.)Sorry about that sir I got it now. I ll keep it in mind from now on.
Ok sir it’s alright reply whenever it’s possible for you I’ll wait.
Others are also welcome to comment. Thank you!
You are probably in India.
Yes exactly sir.
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It is hard enough to express our thoughts in words, so we need to make an effort to convey our ideas as clearly as possible. The message/ideas can get lost with grammar errors.
Hello sir I will explain my question again in simple and concise manner now.
1) I have heard that ‘mindfulness of breathing’ meditation helps in developing first four ‘bodhyangas’ (factors of awakening):
>Mindfulness (sati)
>Keen investigation of the dhamma
(dhammavicaya)
>Energy (viriya)
>Rapture or happiness (piti)And Vipassana-insight meditation helps in developing remaining last three ‘bodhyangas’ (factors of awakening):
>Calm (passaddhi)
>Concentration (samadhi)
>Equanimity (upekkha)(Let me ignore this Vipassana insight meditation part and instead talk about breathing meditation part, for now, at least)
2) Mindfulness of breathing (as I know it) involves witnessing breathing in and breathing out by staying aware of breathing at the area of nostrils…all distractions will (in the form of thoughts and doubts) come but still one is supposed to bring one’s mind again and again back to awareness of breathing. Process should be continued till one can constantly be aware of breathing without any distractions. It is a constant fight against all the thoughts and distractions.
3) In another case When one makes one’s mind thoughtless by trying not to focus it anywhere and suppressing distractions and then one (can) starts to experience some form of happiness above the happiness from 5 sense organs, which is also kind of ‘pitisukha'(this is not the same as 4th factor of awakening but something like that)(this is how anariya jhana starts I suppose because in anariya jhana one suppresses thoughts without realising the truth of their impermanence)(same as anariya gods who achiev birth in heaven by directly doing punna kamma without getting rid of tendencies to do papa kamma), then in order to start and attain and experience anariya jhana one is supposed to focus on that pitisukha like happiness or rather an anariya being naturally at this point by default latches onto that pitisukha like happiness as soon as it arises because it is also some overwhelming happiness. Now this can be done/reached by initially taking the help of mindfulness of breathing meditation also.
4) Through mindfulness of breathing meditation initially one can make one’s mind concentrated and can(without having to deal with distractions of mind) start to directly experience some kind of pitisukha by moving focus away from breathing and directing it to becoming thoughtless (by suppressing thoughts with force initially) to focus mind(achieve ekaggata) and make it more & more empty of distractions/thoughts resulting in experience of some kind of pitisukha.
So generally when one starts mindfulness of breathing meditation ..with practice, first many many thoughts/distractions come and they are suppressed or forcibly ignored and then they fade away(due to suppression) then breathing fades away and then as a result pitisukha arises in such focused mind and then anariya person latches onto it.(But this is not the proper way of mindfulness of breathing meditation). This is how anariya jhana is started I suppose.5) Now true mindfulness of breathing meditation involves continuously staying aware of in-out breathing and even pitisukha is not to be latched on and when pitisukha arises still one is supposed to stay aware of one’s breathing only. Actually it’s very very very hard to reach pitisukha if one practices proper mindfulness of breathing meditation. (I am talking this in the case when general anariya persons practices “proper/true” mindfulness of breathing meditation and I am not talking about ariya people sirs). So one is supposed to not let breathing fade away(by default it starts to fade away by becoming smaller and smaller as mind becomes less and less distracted). When breathing starts to fade away one is supposed to apply slight force to breathing (which has become so small now) just enough to increase the awareness of breathing and not let it fade away. Now as one works to constantly stay aware of breathing, first factor of awakening which is –
>mindfulness or ‘sati’ starts to develop and as one continues one is forced to deal with all the impure thoughts/doubts that arise in mind as we continue. So one’s observation of one’s thoughts actually increases and they are seen as ‘anitya'(impermanent) as they fade away after arising continuously and this is what I believe helps in developing the second ‘bodhyanga'(factor of awakening) which is –
>keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya) in the form of contemplation of impermanence of thoughts and then as one practices regularly one simultaneously develops 3rd factor of energy or ‘viriya’ as one is practicing continuously, fighting continuosly and after working like that only then one reaches the pitisukha(which is the 4th factor of awakening).
*Because of doing this kind of proper mindfulness of breathing meditation (I believe) one reaches a state when one is constantly aware of his breathing without any thoughts or distractions and simultaneously one’s mind is filled with pitisukha also!* But to reach this state one has to get rid of/be done away with all the deeper and deeper distractions and doubts that come to one’s mind on the way by seeing their impermanence. And this is actually very easier said than done!So my first question is this… Is there any mistake in my above all the 5 points? If yes then please clarify and kindly correct me 🙏
My second question is, considering above 5 points, is it right to say that ‘mindfulness of breathing’ meditation if done truly(as I tried to explain above), it can, help in developing first 4 factors of awakening instead of reaching anariya jhana??
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Thank you for making the effort to write concisely.
I highlighted two critical statements you made in the first part of your comment.
- I can see how one could think “focusing on the breath” could be equated to “mindfulness.” (It is not. I will explain in a future comment.)
- Since focusing on the breath keeps a mind away from defiled thoughts (those with raga, dosa, moha), it also provides a “relief to the mind” (which one may experience as “piti/sukha.”), and that may give an incentive to do more (i.e., viriya.) (But that effect is temporary. I will explain in a future comment.)
Can you explain how “focusing on the breath” leads to a “keen investigation of the dhamma”?
P.S. Also, what do you mean by “dhamma”?
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I read through the rest of your comment to understand what you mean by “dhamma.” You seem to describe it as follows:
“keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya) in the form of contemplation of impermanence of thoughts..”
- Is that what you mean by dhamma? “contemplation of impermanence of thoughts”?
If so, how would that lead to Nibbana?
- In a related question, what do you understand by “Nibbana“?
- In other words, what is the goal of your practice?
P.S. There are still many grammar issues. You can ask a free AI program like ChatGPT or Grok to check your grammar. It is not hard, making it easier for the readers to understand your comments.
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Sir thank you for giving your time. I’ll try to answer each of your questions one by one.
I can see how one could think “focusing on the breath” could be equated to “mindfulness.” (It is not. I will explain in a future comment.)
Since focusing on the breath keeps a mind away from defiled thoughts (those with raga, dosa, moha), it also provides a “relief to the mind” (which one may experience as “piti/sukha.”), and that may give an incentive to do more (i.e., viriya.) (But that effect is temporary. I will explain in a future comment.)Sir, in my opinion, by focusing on breathing it may lead one away from thoughts and towards temporary relief but being mindful of breathing forces one to deal with all those thoughts and know their impermanent nature and weakens the tendency of ‘holding on’ or tendency of ‘clinging’ on to them. This is just my opinion.(Btw I haven’t experienced pitisukha yet in my life)
But in any case I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing gives permanent eradication of defiled thoughts. It’s more of temporary solution.
So I completely accept what you said in above 2 points.
Can you explain how “focusing on the breath” leads to a “keen investigation of the dhamma”?
Sir by ‘keen investigation of dhamma’ I believe it means ‘seeing the impermanence of all the thoughts/distractions’. Am I right here sir?
Also, what do you mean by “dhamma”?
I meant the ‘nature of impermanence’ ‘anityabodh’ by the word ‘dhamma’. I guess I am wrong here, ain’t I sir?
Is that what you mean by dhamma? “contemplation of impermanence of thoughts”?
Yes exactly sir. I guess I am wrong here as well??
If so, how would that lead to Nibbana?
No sir I don’t think it will(help to) lead to nibbana(not directly atleast)and that is why I am asking here how to practice in order to reach nibbana. But I believe this is preparatory step? Am I right sir?
In a related question, what do you understand by “Nibbana“?
Highest wellbeing… when mind is freed from three poisons of raga, dvesha and moha? For example one becomes arhat when one’s volition/intention becomes free. In my understanding I believe after one glimpses nibbana for the first time, one becomes unable to do those akusala kammas which will lead him to apaya realms as one has understood what action or thought will take one where. I mean anriya person like me who has read some suttas may understand that there is no ‘I’ present in me but my cetana does not know that. It’s like I believe fire burns but I have never touched fire ever so I merely believe fire burns but my cetana is not aware of that. So my cetana is not free but an arhat person’s cetana has become free. Am I right sir?
In other words, what is the goal of your practice?
To have glimpse of nibbana in this life only.
Please correct me sir!🙏
P.S. There are still many grammar issues. You can ask a free AI program like ChatGPT or Grok to check your grammar. It is not hard, making it easier for the readers to understand your comments.
Sorry about that sir. From next post I’ll definitely do that.
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Each person is different. So, explore some of the ideas suggested above. Take your time. Feel free to ask questions as you proceed. You can ask your questions in this thread to keep track of your progress. Of course, others are also welcome to comment or ask related questions on this thread.
Yes sir I am exploring topics you suggested above. There are many many of them! I was searching for something like ‘do it daily and you will reach nibbana’. But I guess that’s not how it works.
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You wrote: “But in any case, I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing gives permanent eradication of defiled thoughts. It’s more of temporary solution.”
- That is correct, and that is the bottom line.
- So, I don’t think we need to discuss whether “breathing meditation” can lead to Nibbana. It simply cannot.
- Do I need to answer any other questions in your above comment? If so, please point them out. I think they are all related to this issue.
- I will make some comments on how to cultivate the path to Nibbana. It may take a day or two.
By the way, I entered your above quote in Google Docs, and it immediately corrected the errors as follows:
“But in any case, I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing permanently eradicates defiled thoughts. It’s more of a temporary solution.”
- Can you see how easy it is to generate a better comment?
- Please compose your comments (especially the lengthy ones) in Google Docs. It is free. There are other free word-processing software, too. I hope others will follow this advice, too.
P.S. You made the following comment while I was responding to the earlier one: “Yes sir I am exploring topics you suggested above. There are many many of them! I was searching for something like ‘do it daily and you will reach nibbana’. But I guess that’s not how it works.”
- Understanding Buddha’s teachings takes an effort.
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Hello Saurabh@2110.
In my opinion, you describe the cultivation of Anariya Jhana. Anariya Jhana is a taste of the rupa and arupa realms. Even if one could deepen their concentration to the point of being able to cut off limbs without feeling anything, that would still not be proof.
How can one free oneself from the 10 fetters (Samyojana) through breath meditation??????🙄
- Belief in a permanent self (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
- Skeptical doubt (vicikicchā)
- Attachment to mere rules and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāsa)
- Sensual desire (kāma-rāga, kāmacchando)
- Hostility (vyāpāda, byāpādo)<br />
————–(The following are the 5 higher fetters)—————— - Desire for fine material existence (rūpa-rāga)
- Desire for immaterial existence (arūpa-rāga)
- Pride (māna)
- Restlessness (uddhacca)
- Ignorance (avijjā)
Consider which of these points is suppressed by concentration on the breath, and which ones do not arise again after meditation.… 🙏🙏🙏
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I have written the following comment, which I plan to post next week as a regular post. In the meantime, we can discuss and revise it to address further questions.
Attaining Nibbāna Requires Understanding Buddha’s Worldview
Summary: Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals. It requires understanding how the Buddha described the world that we live in. That worldview vastly differs from all the worldviews humans (no matter how intelligent) have ever proposed. Attaining Nibbāna requires a mindset change.
Too Many Myths/Misconceptions About Nibbāna
1. Many versions of Buddhism or Buddha Dhamma are being practiced today.
- One common misconception is that if one can follow the five (or eight) precepts and engage in “meditation,” one can attain Nibbāna. Here, “meditation” refers explicitly to “breath meditation.”
- A good example is the “Vipassanā meditation” method by the late S.N. Goenka. We have had many discussions on the forum regarding this program. See, for example, “About Vipassanā-insight technique taught by teacher S.N. Goenka” and “Goenka´s Vipassanā.”
- Here, I will describe the framework of the path to Nibbāna according to the Tipiṭaka, the Pāli Scriptures written down by a group of Arahants at the Fourth Buddhist Council two thousand years ago.
Rāga, Dosa, Moha – Root Causes of a Stressed Mind
2. Many people become faithful believers in “breath meditation” because it helps calm the mind. For those who have experienced that calming effect, it provides solid evidence that one can control one’s mind and make it calm. However, the negative aspect of that experience is that people get addicted to it and do not realize that it is only a temporary solution to a long-term problem.
- To investigate this issue further, let’s examine the root causes of a stressed mind.
- Think about the status of our minds while going through life. When we are attracted to something, our minds become agitated because we have a nagging feeling of the need to fulfill that desire. In other words, greedy thoughts make a mind agitated. The root cause is “rāga” or “craving for worldly things.”
- If one gets angry, his mind gets heated, and the anger shows in the face, too. The result is an uncomfortable, heated mind. Usually, the origin of that anger is the craving for something and not getting it. For example, if two men pursue the same woman, they may become enemies and get into heated arguments. Here, the root cause for an unsettled mind is dosa or anger/hate.
- Then, there are situations where a mind becomes dull, lazy, and depressed. The root cause here is moha or avijjā, which we will clarify below.
Rāga, Dosa, Moha Lead to Suffering in Future Lives Too
3. The Buddha pointed out that the three root causes of rāga, dosa, and moha are responsible for our suffering in this life. In addition—and even more importantly—our actions based on rāga, dosa, and moha also dictate suffering in future lives.
- Both aspects can be explained via the laws of kamma (or Paṭicca Samuppāda.) Our actions with rāga, dosa, and moha in mind lead to immoral deeds (called papa kamma) that can bring adverse results (kamma vipaka) in this life or future lives.
- But how can we stop such thoughts with rāga, dosa, and moha rising in our minds?
- That requires a lengthy explanation. However, the first stage is to understand that the problem of suffering is not restricted to this life. We must understand how and why suffering does not end at death and continues into future lives via a rebirth process.
- This website provides evidence of the rebirth process and other details. This post summarizes the framework of the “big picture” necessary to get a preliminary idea of Buddha’s teachings.
An Analogy of a Glass of Water
4. The Buddha used various analogies to describe how a mind becomes agitated, heated, or lethargic under different conditions.
- A “stress-free mind” is like a tall glass of pure water. That suffering-free mind is called a “pabhassara mind.” Thoughts arising in a pabhassara mind are like clear water poured from that glass of pure water. They are not immoral or moral, just neutral.
- The mind of a puthujjana (average human) is like a tall glass of water with fine mud particles. If left undisturbed, all the mud will settle at the bottom of the glass, and the water on top will look clean. If we gently pour some water, it will look like pure water. In the same way, when in a calm situation (e.g., while in breath meditation), our thoughts appear to be “neutral” without causing stress.
- However, that water can be disturbed by stirring it with a straw, and then some mud at the bottom comes up, making the water muddy. Pouring some muddy water out is analogous to generating “defiled thoughts.”
- Thus, in that analogy, layers of mud accumulated at the bottom of the glass are analogous to defiled gati or “saṁsāric bonds” (“saṁyojana“) in Buddha’s teachings.
Gati and Saṁyojana – Root Causes Triggering Rāga, Dosa, Moha
5. The Buddha pointed out that a suffering-free state of mind is hidden by ten layers of “saṁsāric bonds” called saṁyojana (the reason for calling them “saṁsāric bonds” will become clear later.) Three of the ten layers lead to wrong views (diṭṭhi, part of moha/avijjā), five to rāga, and three to moha/avijjā. We attach to “worldly things” with taṇhā based on the diṭṭhi and rāga. Thus, our defiled thoughts arise due to taṇhā and avijjā, as explained in some suttās.
- These ten saṁyojana stay hidden until a tempting sensory input is encountered. Depending on the sensory input, all or some of the ten saṁyojana can be “triggered” by that sensory input. For example, seeing a beautiful woman can trigger kāma rāga saṁyojana in a man. The sight of an enemy can trigger the paṭigha saṁyojana and generate anger.
- The five types of “defiled gati” play a similar role as the ten saṁyojana. They represent different aspects. For example, an “animal gati” (which is in all puthujjana) can be triggered by a strong sensory input, for instance, in the case of a rape or killing.
Temporary Calm Versus Permanent Calm (Nibbāna)
6. Thus, a mind can get to “samadhi,” or a “peaceful state of mind,” if the mind is prevented from being exposed to sensory experiences of daily life. The longer one can stay in such an “isolated environment” (like a meditation retreat), the longer the experience can last. This is why ancient yogis went into deep jungles to be away from sesnory inputs that can trigger “saṁyojana” or “gati” and trigger rāga, dosa, and moha defilements come to the surface.
- It is only by understanding the reasons for those “saṁyojana” or “gati” to exist that we can start breaking the “saṁsāric bonds” or “saṁyojana” (equivalently to get rid of various “gati“).
- When one starts grasping Buddha’s worldview (and understanding how suffering arises), the first three saṁyojanās are permanently removed at the Sotapanna stage. This involves the removal of sakkāya diṭṭhi and two other diṭṭhi saṁyojana.
- At the subsequent two stages of Sakadāgāmi and Anāgāmi, one would comprehend how kāma rāga (and paṭigha or dosa) arises due to “distorted/false saññā” (associated with existences in kāma loka) that we discuss briefly below in #9.
- Two more types of rāga (rupa rāga and arupa rāga) are removed by an Anāgāmi by contemplating the “distorted/false saññā” associated with the Brahma realms. Avijja and two other saṁyojanās associated with avijjā are also removed at the Arahant stage.
Analogy of a Glass of Pure Water
7. Once all ten saṁyojanās are broken (and the five major gati removed), that is like permanently removing the mud at the bottom of a glass in the analogy of #4 above.
- As we saw in #6 above, removing the ten saṁyojanās at various stages of Nibbāna is analogous to removing layers of mud at the bottom of the glass.
- Once all the mud in the glass is removed, the water will remain pure no matter how much one tries to stir it with a straw.
- In the same way, the mind of an Arahant will be pure no matter where he lives. He can live among the most beautiful women, and no sensual thoughts will arise. That is also true for an Anāgāmi who has removed kāma rāga and paṭigha saṁyojana.
- A Sotapanna has only understood the basic framework and would still attach to the “distorted/false saññā” associated with sensual sensory inputs in kāma loka. However, since they have removed the three ditthis (especially sakkāya diṭṭhi), their minds cannot be disturbed to the extent of committing “apāyāgāmi kamma,” which can lead to rebirths in the apāyās. Thus, they are permanently free of rebirths in the four lowest realms (apāyās.)
Saṁsāric Bonds (Saṁyojana) Can be Removed Only with Wisdom (Paññā)
8. The Buddha taught that all those root causes can be traced back to avijjā (or moha), generally translated as “ignorance.” The “ignorance” is not to realize the world’s true nature. This is critical because attaining Nibbāna (or becoming free of suffering) requires comprehending Buddha’s worldview (how suffering arises) and dispelling avijjā.
- Thus, attaining Nibbāna critically depends on cultivating wisdom (paññā) by understanding the root causes of avijjā. Even though living a moral life is necessary, Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals.
- Instead of using the ten saṁyojana, we could also say the same using five “main gati” (pronounced “gathi.”) The closest translation of “gati” is “character/habits.” One attains Nibbāna by removing all five gati. But those five gati can be split into various types. The main point here is that one’s habits (based on character) determine one’s actions, i.e., kamma generation. Posts related to these terms can be found using the “Search” box on the top right.
Root Cause of Taṇhā = “Distorted/False Saññā“
9. Humans have an innate idea/perception (Buddha used the Pāli word “saññā” to label it) that things in the world are “on a solid footing” and can be relied on to achieve happiness. That saññā seems natural at any given moment when we make our decisions.
- However, if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed.
- In other posts, we have discussed how this world of “impermanence of things” arises (or is maintained) via the collective minds of all sentient beings defiled with rāga, dosa, and moha. As discussed in many posts, the “impermanence of things in the world” is a consequence of not comprehending the anicca nature of the world. Instead, we have a mindset of “nicca nature,” i.e., a “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world.
- Thus, it is critical to note that impermanence is associated with “things in the world,” and “anicca nature” is a “state of mind” realized after comprehending Buddha’s teachings. Until then, one has the mindset of “nicca nature” (i.e., the world is on a solid foundation to provide happiness) based on the “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world. This paragraph contains the essence of Buddha’s teachings and requires a lengthy explanation. This website describes various ways to get there.
- These days, most English translations translate “anicca” and “impermanence,” which is a grave error! By the way, the Sanskrit word “anitya” means “impermanence,” but it is not the same as the Pāli word “anicca.”
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Do I need to answer any other questions in your above comment? If so, please point them out. I think they are all related to this issue
Sir, it’s alright, you don’t have to answer them as I have started to get what you are saying. Can you just answer another related question please!
1) Can developing all the seven factors of awakening lead one to nibbana?
2) If it can lead one to nibbana then how do I develop all of them? Is there any practice for that?
If one cannot attain nibbana solely by developing all the 7 factors of awakening then anyways I am sticking with your previously given answers.
In any case I wish to know how do I reach/cultivate the path to nibbana in this life only. So I am seeking answers in this context only.Can you see how easy it is to generate a better comment?
Please compose your comments (especially the lengthy ones) in Google Docs. It is free. There are other free word-processing software, too. I hope others will follow this advice, too.Yes sir I have downloaded it and I’ll definitely use that for my next lengthy comments. Thank you!
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These days, most English translations translate “anicca” and “impermanence,” which is a grave error! By the way, the Sanskrit word “anitya” means “impermanence,” but it is not the same as the Pāli word “anicca.”
I perfectly understood this part sir.
if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed.
In other posts, we have discussed how this world of “impermanence of things” arises (or is maintained) via the collective minds of all sentient beings defiled with rāga, dosa, and moha. As discussed in many posts, the “impermanence of things in the world” is a consequence of not comprehending the anicca nature of the world. Instead, we have a mindset of “nicca nature,” i.e., a “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world.I’ll keep on contemplating above quote now!
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Saurabh asked: “1) Can developing all the seven factors of awakening lead one to nibbana?
2) If it can lead one to nibbana then how do I develop all of them? Is there any practice for that?”I hope you read my comment above carefully before starting on the seven awakening factors. It appears that you read through my comment in a few minutes. Reading and understanding are two different things.
- The seven awakening factors (at least the Noble version leading to Nibbana) can be cultivated only by a Sotapanna.
- One must first understand the basic framework of Buddha’s worldview to become a Sotapanna. That means realizing the anicca nature of the world. Do you understand the meaning of “anicca nature”? If not, I can recommend some posts.
If anyone has questions about my comment above, I can answer them. It is critical to understand those basics.
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I hope you read my comment above carefully before starting on the seven awakening factors. It appears that you read through my comment in a few minutes. Reading and understanding are two different things.
Sir actually I asked my above 2 questions about if seven factors of awakening lead to nibbana and about how to cultivate them before I could see your following post…
Summary: Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals. It requires understanding how the Buddha described the world that we live in. That worldview vastly differs from all the worldviews humans (no matter how intelligent) have ever proposed. Attaining Nibbāna requires a mindset change.
Too Many Myths/Misconceptions About Nibbāna
The page took time to update. I could see your latest detailed post only after I posted my 2 questions about 7 factors.
But after that I carefully read it and only then I posted my following replies.
I’ll keep on contemplating above quote now!
Now Sir I have some questions regarding your detailed post..
6. Thus, a mind can get to “samadhi,” or a “peaceful state of mind,” if the mind is prevented from being exposed to sensory experiences of daily life. The longer one can stay in such an “isolated environment” (like a meditation retreat), the longer the experience can last. This is why ancient yogis went into deep jungles to be away from sesnory inputs that can trigger “saṁyojana” or “gati” and trigger rāga, dosa, and moha defilements come to the surface.
Sir I perfectly understood above part of your post along with analogy of a glass of water given by you.
if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed.
I feel I should keep on reflecting on this above part of post regularly because I should understand that first. I feel like I have just accepted it from surface but it hasn’t reached to my very core. I hope reflecting upon it and carefully studying through the topics you mentioned in above post will help me in that. I am gonna read your above detailed post again many times and I’ll ask questions if there are any. But what else I should do other than reflecting and reading and trying to understand those topics in detail??
Btw Thank you very much for that detailed post sir!The seven awakening factors (at least the Noble version leading to Nibbana) can be cultivated only by a Sotapanna.
So sir, is it wrong if I am trying to practice anything to develop any of the 4 factors of awakening without being sotapanna? I mean I am not sotapanna so I should not try to understand/study about those 7 factors now right?
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“Sir actually I asked my above 2 questions about if seven factors of awakening lead to nibbana and about how to cultivate them before I could see your following post…”
- OK. That explains what happened.
- Your other comments below clarify that you are contemplating my long post. The main point is that Nibbana can be reached only by dispelling raga, dosa, and moha by cultivating wisdom (panna.)
- In my analogy of the glass of water, the mud can be removed by a physical process (by scooping it out or filtering using a filter). However, the defilements in a mind (samyojana/gati) can be removed only by wisdom (panna.)
To address the question you raised at the end: “So sir, is it wrong if I am trying to practice anything to develop any of the 4 factors of awakening without being sotapanna? I mean I am not sotapanna so I should not try to understand/study about those 7 factors now right?”
- There are two versions of the “eightfold path,” “seven factors of enlightenment,” “Satipatthana,” etc. There is a mundane version and a Noble version.
- The Buddha discussed that in the “Mahācattārīsaka Sutta (MN 117).” I have written a post “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)” to discuss it, but I think a simpler discussion is probably needed. Anyway, you can read both and ask questions.
- Most people practice the mundane versions. The Noble versions can be practiced only after understanding the world’s “anicca nature.”
- To become a Sotapanna and start on the noble path, one must practice the mundane versions and live a moral life. So, one should practice regardless. The practice automatically turns to the Noble version as one starts grasping the “anicca nature” and gradually removing sakkaya ditthi.
- Buddha’s actual teachings have been underground for a long time. Most translators of the Pali Tipitaka (including suttas) today understand only the mundane versions. We cannot blame ourselves or the translators because that is what we have been taught for generations. Waharaka Thero (who has now passed away) was born a Sotapanna (meaning he had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) and was responsible for uncovering the true meanings of many concepts.
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- Keeping precepts is not enough, it’s good but you need to see “bad” things and why they are bad. Keeping precepts is not a “vow” or “exercise” – it’s the result of insight and wisdom that you gain through understanding Dhamma
- You need to have a properly realized teacher who can speak to you directly about progress and your understanding. It’s very hard to do it on your own. There are videos of certain teachers that explain the true nature https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk8UenDhipg
- Read thru the site too
- Meditate using kammasthana (chanting like “Ethan Santhan Ethan Paneethan”)
It takes time to mature because your progress is limited by your own understanding and inborn qualities. You should not give up even if the progress is slow as there is no other way out of Sansara
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To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
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There are two versions of the “eightfold path,” “seven factors of enlightenment,” “Satipatthana,” etc. There is a mundane version and a Noble version.
Understood sir.
The Buddha discussed that in the “Mahācattārīsaka Sutta (MN 117).” I have written a post “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)” to discuss it, but I think a simpler discussion is probably needed. Anyway, you can read both and ask questions.
I read both versions sir. In that sutta buddha says that right view, right effort and right mindfulness and all three of these things are kind of go/grow together(in non-linear way) and keep circling and running around right view only. I don’t have any questions about that, I accepted that and now I am trying to understand and apply it.
Most people practice the mundane versions. The Noble versions can be practiced only after understanding the world’s “anicca nature.”
To become a Sotapanna and start on the noble path, one must practice the mundane versions and live a moral life. So, one should practice regardless. The practice automatically turns to the Noble version as one starts grasping the “anicca nature” and gradually removing sakkaya ditthi.I think this answers my question sir! So I will have to stick with practice which is off course mundane version and eventually if I practice with enough wisdom I may reach their noble version some day! I believe as one continues to live with right view aniccha nature will surely become apparent step by step. Atleast I hope so.
Buddha’s actual teachings have been underground for a long time. Most translators of the Pali Tipitaka (including suttas) today understand only the mundane versions. We cannot blame ourselves or the translators because that is what we have been taught for generations. Waharaka Thero (who has now passed away) was born a Sotapanna (meaning he had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) and was responsible for uncovering the true meanings of many concepts.
Wow I am glad that he was born…if he weren’t born I don’t think I would have gotten this opportunity of taking guidance from you or anyone here sir Lal. Thank you so much. 🙏
Before whenever I had any query about dhamma I used to directly search it on Google and would try to read many answers from many links. But now whenever I have any such doubt I search it on Google only, but I add the word ‘puredhamma’ during searching so that I will get explanation from this website only this website truly shows pure dhamma of nobles as if any noble being directly talking and I am confident about this.
So my aim now is to study all the posts from this website and that way I will definitely not go wrong.
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To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
Yes sir and I believe following sir lal sort of fulfils that requirment. (atleast for me)
Thank you for pointing this out sir!
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@Saurabh:
To become a Sotapanna, it is essential to understand Paticca Samuppada. You may want to peruse this section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English“
- Another approach is to get an idea about anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). You could start here: “Anicca – True Meaning.” The following section has audio files I recorded some time back: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“
- OR, you may already have an idea of where to start.
- The key is to start from a point with some definite traction. You can feel that instinctively when you encounter the right “area.” Once you get some traction, there is no stopping!
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To become a Sotapanna, it is essential to understand Paticca Samuppada. You may want to peruse this section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English“
Sir I have started this section today. I think it will take me many days to go through all the posts including posts which are linked within those posts!
Another approach is to get an idea about anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). You could start here: “Anicca – True Meaning.” The following section has audio files I recorded some time back: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“
I have gone through some of these posts but not all. In any case I’ll complete them. Earlier I used to aspire for heavenly future rebirth but now the suffering associated with such heavenly rebirth(anariya being in heaven surely falls in lower realms afterwards) has become apparent to me. So my goal now is no more rebirth after this life.
Thank you sir! -
To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
I would agree if I didn’t have access to PureDhamma – but now that I have access to such an extensive explanation, made through the efforts of Mr. Lal – I don’t know if this is still a valid thesis ;)
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To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
I would agree if I didn’t have access to PureDhamma – but now that I have access to such an extensive explanation, made through the efforts of Mr. Lal – I don’t know if this is still a valid thesis ;)
You still need to “listen” to someone either thru audio or audio-video who understand Dhamma. It works on whole different level then
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You still need to “listen” to someone either thru audio or audio-video who understand Dhamma. It works on whole different level then
Somewhere already on the forum, and I think it was Mr. Lal who referred to the issue of this “need to listen” and it was that the message itself, which comes from Ariya, is important and can be read as well, what matters is understanding and implementation in practice. This issue of listening strictly may come from a time where there was a problem with access to print, it appears as some kind of superstition, or something of the caliber of a “ritual” – just a thing by force, a dogma of some kind. I have access to PureDhamma content, and I don’t think that by reading it and putting it into practice I am at a disadvantage to those who understand English enough to catch every important nuance and benefit from it.
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At Sāvatthī.
Sāvatthinidānaṁ.
Seated to one side, King Pasenadi said to the Buddha,
Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho rājā pasenadi kosalo bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:
“Just now, sir, as I was in private retreat this thought came to mind.
“idha mayhaṁ, bhante, rahogatassa paṭisallīnassa evaṁ cetaso parivitakko udapādi:
‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha. But it’s for someone with good friends, companions, and associates, not for someone with bad friends, companions, and associates.’”
‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo, so ca kho kalyāṇamittassa kalyāṇasahāyassa kalyāṇasampavaṅkassa, no pāpamittassa no pāpasahāyassa no pāpasampavaṅkassā’”ti.
“That’s so true, great king! That’s so true!” said the Buddha. And he repeated the king’s statement, adding:
“Evametaṁ, mahārāja, evametaṁ, mahārāja.
Svākkhāto, mahārāja, mayā dhammo. So ca kho kalyāṇamittassa kalyāṇasahāyassa kalyāṇasampavaṅkassa, no pāpamittassa no pāpasahāyassa no pāpasampavaṅkassāti.
“Great king, this one time I was staying in the land of the Sakyans where they have a town named Townsville.
Ekamidāhaṁ, mahārāja, samayaṁ sakkesu viharāmi nagarakaṁ nāma sakyānaṁ nigamo.
Then the mendicant Ānanda came to me, bowed, sat down to one side, and said:
Atha kho, mahārāja, ānando bhikkhu yenāhaṁ tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā maṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho, mahārāja, ānando bhikkhu maṁ etadavoca:
‘Sir, good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life.’
‘upaḍḍhamidaṁ, bhante, brahmacariyassa—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā’ti.
When he had spoken, I said to him:
Evaṁ vuttāhaṁ, mahārāja, ānandaṁ bhikkhuṁ etadavocaṁ:
‘Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda!
‘mā hevaṁ, ānanda, mā hevaṁ, ānanda.
Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life.
Sakalameva hidaṁ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṁ—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā.
A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.
Kalyāṇamittassetaṁ, ānanda, bhikkhuno pāṭikaṅkhaṁ kalyāṇasahāyassa kalyāṇasampavaṅkassa ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bhāvessati ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bahulīkarissati.
And how does a mendicant with good friends develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path?
Kathañca, ānanda, bhikkhu kalyāṇamitto kalyāṇasahāyo kalyāṇasampavaṅko ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bhāveti, ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bahulīkaroti?
It’s when a mendicant develops right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.
Idhānanda, bhikkhu sammādiṭṭhiṁ bhāveti vivekanissitaṁ virāganissitaṁ nirodhanissitaṁ vossaggapariṇāmiṁ, sammāsaṅkappaṁ bhāveti … sammāvācaṁ bhāveti … sammākammantaṁ bhāveti … sammāājīvaṁ bhāveti … sammāvāyāmaṁ bhāveti … sammāsatiṁ bhāveti … sammāsamādhiṁ bhāveti vivekanissitaṁ virāganissitaṁ nirodhanissitaṁ vossaggapariṇāmiṁ.
That’s how a mendicant with good friends develops and cultivates the noble eightfold path.
Evaṁ kho, ānanda, bhikkhu kalyāṇamitto kalyāṇasahāyo kalyāṇasampavaṅko ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bhāveti, ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bahulīkaroti.
And here’s another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life.
Tadamināpetaṁ, ānanda, pariyāyena veditabbaṁ yathā sakalamevidaṁ brahmacariyaṁ—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatāti.
For, by relying on me as a good friend, sentient beings who are liable to rebirth, old age, and death, to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are freed from all these things.
Mamañhi, ānanda, kalyāṇamittaṁ āgamma jātidhammā sattā jātiyā parimuccanti, jarādhammā sattā jarāya parimuccanti, byādhidhammā sattā byādhito parimuccanti, maraṇadhammā sattā maraṇena parimuccanti, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsadhammā sattā sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsehi parimuccanti.
This is another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life.’
Iminā kho etaṁ, ānanda, pariyāyena veditabbaṁ yathā sakalamevidaṁ brahmacariyaṁ—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā’ti.
- Christian’s suggestion of having a master who monitors our progress is valid and essential. It is only valid for people below the sotāpanna stage. It is at the sotāpanna stage that one does not need a master since a sotāpanna is independent in the Dhamma. No matter his negligence and actions, a sotāpanna will become an arahant in a maximum of 7 bhava (state of existence), of course, he or she will never commit apayagami acts. The slightest negligence of a puthujunas can lead him into a very painful niraya like Avīci even if the person practices Dhamma. See the story of Queen Mallika. We must not make the mistake of missing the sotāpanna course because of our ego. It is safer to go and discuss with members of the Sangha to have the best chance. Of course, the person must have enough Kusalas Kamma to understand the Dhamma too. King Ajatasattu is another example of a missed opportunity. He had the Kusalas to become a sotāpanna but, committed anantariya Kamma under the influence of Devadatta. He’s in a niraiya right now. A puthujunas needs to hear the Dhamma from a noble person to attain the sotāpanna stage. We must understand what taking refuge in the Sangha is. Taking refuge in the Sangha means listening to the Dhamma of a noble person, that is to say, a person who has reached at least the sotāpanna stage. Lord Buddha has reached Parinibbāna, it is impossible to see him face to face again. The Dhamma is around us but our ignorance prevents us from seeing it. It takes a noble person to show us the beginning of the path to Nibbāna. It is only a Bodhisatta and a Paccekabodhisatta who are capable of attaining the Dhamma by themselves without the help of people. As beings who do not aspire to Buddhahood, we must associate with noble people to reach the first stage of Nibbāna. Since we did not know who was an ariya or not, the best way was to talk with bhikkhus or bhikkhunis. Of course, an ariya can be a layman or a laywoman. However, it is among the community of monks and nuns that one will be most likely to come across ariyas.
- Sangham saranam gacchami. I go to the Sangha for refuge.
- The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, sincere, systematic, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.’“suppaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho ujuppaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho ñāyappaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho sāmīcippaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho, yadidaṁ cattāri purisayugāni aṭṭha purisapuggalā esa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho, āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṁ puññakkhettaṁ lokassā”ti.
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The question is whether one needs to listen to Dhamma to attain the Sotapanna stage.
- I don’t see any evidence to conclude that.
I also used to believe that one MUST listen to Dhamma to attain the Sotapanna stage because one of the conditions is “saddhammassavanaṃ” or “listen to Dhamma.”
- However, learning by reading was not available at the time of the Buddha.
- So, the suttas do not even discuss whether one can become a Sotapanna by reading.
- Therefore, while people can debate this issue forever, we will not be able to settle it.
I believe that one must learn Dhamma in any way possible. All that matters is to dispel the ignorance that this world of 31 realms can provide a suffering-free existence.
- As one cultivates wisdom (paññā), the “mental bonds (samyojana)” that bind one to the rebirth process will be broken. That is how one attains not only the Sotapanna stage but also all other magga phala.
- See “Four Conditions for Attaining Sotāpanna Magga/Phala.”
- Also, the whole process takes place in the MIND. The way I now see it: It does not matter whether the knowledge comes from reading or listening (which are just two “doors” to the mind): “Mind Operates Like a Machine According to Nature’s Laws”
We can discuss the issue further if anyone can present evidence from the Tipitaka that one cannot become a Sotapanna by reading Dhamma. Knowledge dispels ignorance, and knowledge can come from both reading and listening.
- Also, Sangha in “Sangham saranam gacchami” refers to Noble Persons. A Noble Person can be a bhikkhu or a layperson. Not all bhikkhus belong to Sangha.
- There is a word for bhikkhus who also belong to Sangha. It is bhikkhusangha.
- P.S. For example, Devadatta was a bhikkhu. He cultivated all the anariya jhanas and had supernormal powers too. But he was reborn in an apaya. He did not belong to Sangha.
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- Sir, you know better than anyone the importance of learning from an ariya. Reading alone is not enough because we can be wrong. If a puthujunas reads alone in his corner, he can never become sotāpanna. I say you know better because your site is based on the explanations of an ariyas. You are aware of what happens when the puthujunas read and interpret the suttas.
- Look at the false meanings of Tilakkhana for example, and Anapanasati. It was Puthujunas who spread these erroneous beliefs(breath meditation, impermanence) which persist until today. Through ariyas like Venerable Waharaka Thero, we can see the danger of word-for-word translation. It was your site that convinced me of the importance of noble association. Before I came across your site, I thought that Nibbāna could be achieved alone at home. It was enough to read a book on Buddhism and meditate on breathing to achieve Nibbāna. See how ignorant I was. I didn’t even understand what it meant to take refuge in the Sangha. Even your site can be subject to misinterpretation if a wise person does not explain it to a person reading it. For example, the concept of Gandhabba can be interpreted as a soul by a person who has strong micchādiṭṭhi. I have sent articles from the site to people and believe me it has reinforced some of their erroneous beliefs. A Mahayanist told me that bhavas remind him of the states of Buddhahood.
- I clearly explained to him that the article on the site has nothing to do with it, but he persisted in his micchādiṭṭhi. This is yet another proof of the danger of reading without asking an ariya for explanations.
- The suttas were preserved and written down by arahants. How is it that verses written by arahants can be misinterpreted?? These are people who think that reading is enough but they forget that the Dhamma is not a common subject of knowledge. These are knowledge of the law of nature. Why will the Sasana disappear when the last Jati sotāpanna dies? The scriptures will be there, the Vinaya will be there but, no one will reach a stage of magga phala. This happens because no ariyas will be there to explain their meaning.
Reading is only an introduction to the Dhamma. Venerable Waharaka Thero said that reading gives us Anumolak Santiya (to be oriented towards imperturbable peace). However, this is not enough to become an ariya. See this video where he explains why. I suggest listening around 10:10.
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I have revised the post “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala” to clarify the point.
5. There is an ongoing debate about whether the Sotapanna magga phala moment is possible only when listening to Dhamma. In the following video (starting around 8 minutes), Waharaka Thero says that is the requirement. He says one could read and get to the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage, but the phala moment occurs only while listening to a discourse by an Ariya.
- However, attaining the Sotapanna phala moment can happen anytime, anywhere while contemplating. Of course, one must have learned the necessary Dhamma concepts from a Noble Person (an Ariya.)
- We can look at two accounts from the Tipitaka to verify the above statement (apparently, Waharaka Thero was unaware of them.) Ven. Koṇḍañña attained the Sotapanna phala moment while contemplating the Dhamma he learnt from the first discourse delivered by the Buddha: “Imasmiñca pana veyyākaraṇasmiṁ bhaññamāne āyasmato koṇḍaññassa virajaṁ vītamalaṁ dhammacakkhuṁ udapādi.” It is mistranslated as “And while this discourse was being spoken, the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in Venerable Koṇḍañña.” See “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11).” The correct translation is, “While contemplating (analyzing) the Dhamma he learned from the Buddha, the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in Venerable Koṇḍañña (i.e., he attained the Sotapanna phala moment.)
- Another example is Ven. Cittahattha’s account, “The Five Dullabha (Rare Things).” See the description under “Venerable Cittahattha’s Account” and other comments. Another reference to Ven. Cittahattha’s account: “Dhammapada Verses 38 and 39: Cittahatthatthera Vatthu.” As stated in those accounts, Ven. Cittahattha attained the Sotapanna phala moment while walking to the monastery to become a bhikkhu for the seventh time; while walking, he contemplated the Dhamma he had learned.
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Thank you for the clarifications, Sir. In the case of Venerable Arahant Kondanna, he was listening to Lord Buddha. As for Venerable Arahant Cittahattha, he listened to many discourses from both Lord Buddha and other noble individuals. While walking towards the monastery, he recalled these discourses and became a sotāpanna. Yes I agree one can become a sotāpanna at any moment. The key point here is the importance of associating with noble people.
- We are not living in the time of Lord Buddha, and we do not possess the iddhi powers to discern who is an ariya. An ariya can be either a layperson or a bhikkhu. However, to maximize our chances of engaging with noble individuals, it is advisable to seek discussions with bhikkhus or bhikkhunis. True bhikkhus and bhikkhunis devote their efforts to attaining Nibbāna 24 hours a day, without being distracted by worldly obligations, unlike laypeople. It is among these individuals that we may have the opportunity to meet arahants. This is why it is important to engage in conversations with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis.
- Of course, one can reach any stage of magga phala as a layperson, but nowadays, it is much more challenging. It is common to see sotāpannas and sakadāgāmis among laypeople; however, a sotāpanna can still enjoy sensual pleasures, which may raise doubts about the attainment of magga phala. Consider Sarakani, the drunken sotāpanna. It is indeed possible to become a sotāpanna by listening to Sarakani since he is an ariya.
- One must possess the necessary Kusalas to understand the Dhamma. You might find yourself surrounded by arahants but lack the Kusalas needed to comprehend their teachings. Devadatta is an example. Without the Kusalas developed in past lives, it is impossible to attain the sotāpanna stage. This site provides the opportunity to gain the appropriate understanding to achieve that goal. It is important to reflect on whether the four conditions are fulfilled in our lives!
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“The key point here is the importance of associating with noble people.”
- Who suggested that is not important? I don’t think anyone suggested that.
- However, you may think “association” means constantly seeing and talking to them. That would be an added benefit but not a necessary condition.
- All one needs from an Ariya (Nobel Person) is an explanation of the Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppada, Tilakkhana, etc. If you disagree with that, that is fine. Everyone is free to believe whatever they like.
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Sir, I didn’t say that one must constantly engage in conversation with them. In fact, speaking just once with a noble person can be sufficient to become an ariya. This can even happen in informal settings, such as in a restaurant or during an activity. I recall that Venerable Amadassana Thero mentioned that you can have a conversation with an ariya just once over a cup of tea and become a sotāpanna. My statement is directed primarily at those who are discovering the Dhamma for the first time. Once one becomes a sotāpanna, they gain independence and no longer require a master.
“All one needs from an ariya (noble person) is an explanation of the Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppada, Tilakkhana, and so on.”
Sir, I completely agree with that!
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Yes. These types of beliefs can become “silabbata paramasa.” They are “mental blockers.”
- Another common silabbata paramasa is to believe one cannot attain a magga phala without getting into a jhana.
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Yes, Silabbata paramasa is an obstacle to Nibbāna. This obstacle is completely eradicated at the sotāpanna stage.
We agree that a person will become a Sotāpanna if they possess the necessary kusalas and noble association. If any of these conditions are lacking, the attainment of magga phala will not occur. A clear example of this is King Ajatasattu. He had the requisite kusalas to become a Sotāpanna; however, due to his association with Devadatta and his act of anantariya kamma by killing his father, King Bimbisāra, he obstructed his ability to achieve magga phala.
We can also become sotāpanna by listening to a discussion that is not addressed to us. See Kali the mother of Venerable Arahant Sona. She became a sotāpanna while listening to a discussion between two Yakkhas. Kali is the foremost laywoman in faith.
Birth of Sona Kutikanna
By then Ascetic Gautama had become a Sammā Sambuddha under the Bodhi tree in Bodh Gaya as Lord Gautama Buddha. The Buddha delivered His first sermon named “Dhammachakkappavattana sutta” meaning “Turning of the Wheel of Truth” to five previous ascetic companions at the Deer Park in Isipathana, now called Sārnath near Varanasi in India. It was on the full moon day of the month of July and it is said that large numbers of heavenly beings as well as other non-human beings had come there to listen to the Buddha’s first sermon. Among them was a yakkha general named Sātāgira who discovered that his friend named Hemavata, another yakkha general was not there listening to the sermon by the Buddha. So he left the Deer Park in search of his friend whom he met in the sky in Rajagaha where he informed his friend about the Buddha’s enlightenment and the first sermon. Hemavata asked a series of questions from Sātāgira about the Buddha’s virtuous conduct, wisdom and other characteristics of a Buddha which were described by Sātāgira to his satisfaction.
This discussion took place in the sky just above the house of Kāli’s parents while she was at the top floor near an open window getting some fresh air as it happened to be a warm night. She overheard the discussion between Sātāgira and Hemavata and was able to hear the noble qualities of the Buddha’s conduct, wisdom and other qualities of the Buddha. As she was listening to them, she developed immense faith and confidence in the Buddha and attained the first supra mundane spiritual stage of Stream Enterer (Sotāpanna) at that very moment. During the same night, Kali is said to have delivered a baby boy who was named Sona.
- This story proves once again that practicing jhānas is not a condition for magga phala.
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Yes, Gad. Those are good examples. Thank you!
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Even though I write with conviction about specific issues, my conviction does not mean I must be correct. I make a conclusion based on my understanding of the Tipitaka at that time and the evidence available.
- Please don’t always agree with me. Look at the evidence from all possible sources (especially the Tipitaka and other teachers) and make your own conclusions.
- In some cases, I have changed my position based on previously uncovered evidence from the Tipitaka (and in some cases) with a better understanding of concepts.
- I have realized that I need to make revisions to multiple old posts. I am going through them as time permits. In that regard, recent posts have the most up-to-date information. Even though we are deeply indebted to Waharaka Thero for “opening a new era in discovering the true teachings of the Buddha,” it is an ongoing process. Only a Buddha can be 100% correct. We can only get close to the true teachings as we make progress. Hopefully, this progress will continue even after our deaths with a new generation of Arahants.
- So, please don’t hesitate to point out any contradictions based on the Tipitaka. Not being Arahants, one’s first instinct is to “defend one’s position.” We must resist that temptation and be welcoming of such inputs. Of course, those suggestions must be based on the Tipitaka and logical. The Buddha advised us to make Dhamma our teacher after his passing (Prinibbana). No one, not even an Arahant, can take the place of the Buddha.
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Somewhere already on the forum, and I think it was Mr. Lal who referred to the issue of this “need to listen” and it was that the message itself, which comes from Ariya, is important and can be read as well, what matters is understanding and implementation in practice. This issue of listening strictly may come from a time where there was a problem with access to print, it appears as some kind of superstition, or something of the caliber of a “ritual” – just a thing by force, a dogma of some kind. I have access to PureDhamma content, and I don’t think that by reading it and putting it into practice I am at a disadvantage to those who understand English enough to catch every important nuance and benefit from it. – @Nibbidi83
Discarding advice that may bring you closer to Nibbana and calling it “ritual” or “superstition” makes no sense and screams ignorance. You should consider this for your well-being, and I share this from personal experience. No matter what reading will substitute for experience and sharing “Dhamma” with someone. This has nothing to do with any kind of ritual or superstition. Imagine sharing food with someone in a proper atmosphere versus just ordering food from an app or drive-thru, it seems like the same thing but not really – the outcome is different. Reading is just for you to develop proper ambition and theory, understanding of concepts that may (or may not) create the possibility of realization with someone who already knows Nibbana. This is how it works. There is a sutta when one person recites sutta and other people get Nibbana but not him (the person who did recite). It’s a simple life experience that learning from someone who is realized even on the topic of science will help you quicken the understanding than teaching on your own because there is nothing and no one to point out your ignorance, even this post and I answering to that is proving the point. We are shackled by our bubble and think “We know” but in reality, it’s just a false idea of the mind. Your post is like saying I will “unbound” myself while having your hands tight in rope – but it will not work that way unless you find someone who will help you with those ropes. In reality, there may be less than a few, or maybe even nonexistent in this time of our world of people who can tackle ignorance by just reading articles without someone’s deep explanations based on someone’s ignorance. Most people can not correct themselves, they are corrected by suffering, mistakes, or others (or a mixture of a variety of those things). You should always consider anything and verify everything related to Dhamma before taking up any assumptions because this habit will create more delusion by blindly discarding everything that does not fit your ideas (ie. ignorance. In short – you can not just call things “superstition” and “rituals” because you do not like the idea of them or have a hard to accepting/understanding the principles of the ideas, it’s childish and a sign that maturity is not there. Reading about music and listening to music are two different things. I post it so everyone can reflect on themselves and keep things in check, always remind yourself of your shortcomings and turn them into opportunities, not shackle (so you do not look down on yourself on how much you do not know, but how much space there is for you to learn)
What is said is clear in many suttas. Buddha didn’t say “Look for the holy book and read on it” but look for a spiritual friend (Ariya):
So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying in the land of the Sakyans, where they have a town named Townsville. Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:
“Sir, good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life.”
“Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda! Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life. A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.
And how does a mendicant with good friends develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path? It’s when a mendicant develops right view, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. They develop right thought … right speech … right action … right livelihood … right effort … right mindfulness … right immersion, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. That’s how a mendicant with good friends develops and cultivates the noble eightfold path.
And here’s another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life. For, by relying on me as a good friend, sentient beings who are liable to rebirth, old age, and death, to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are freed from all these things. This is another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life.”
There are also other factors, more on the esoteric side on how mind, speech, and actions in certain ways or certain states of mind/energy can influence you or others. Contemplate it so things whatever you can learn from a book or living Ariya is the same will become obvious. Suttas are obviously “influenced” so it can substitute “Ariya” but only to some extent, I still haven’t figured out that aspect fully on how far and how compatibile you need to be for suttas to actually help you get insight without living Ariya.
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“Buddha didn’t say “Look for the holy book and read on it” but look for a spiritual friend (Ariya):”
- There were no books to read at the time of the Buddha. Indeed, the Tipitaka or even the suttas were not available in written form. You did not seem to have read my comment.
- Writing on that scale became possible about 500 years after Buddha’s Parinibbana. That is when the Tipitaka was written down in Sri Lanka: “Preservation of the Dhamma.”
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What I’m saying is there is more value to the real community than just reading suttas, whether there would be suttas back there or not. I don’t think that even suttas can benefit people who are ignorant of Dhamma to that extent unless someone has extremely good roots like Bahiya. Something also does not add up, if Buddha didn’t think of making a book or suttas but can think and see the universe, but can’t see a way or the idea to “make a book” or “sutta” that would be really off.
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1. It is true that “just reading suttas” will not help.
- A Noble Person (Ariya) who understands the concepts in and out must explain those concepts in detail to a puthujjana. See “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa.”
- That can be done via oral discourses or writing (or a combination of them.)
2. The following single verse in the “Brahmāyu Sutta (MN 91)” provides an example: “Rasapaṭisaṁvedī kho pana so bhavaṁ gotamo āhāraṁ āhāreti, no ca rasarāgapaṭisaṁvedī” OR “He (the Buddha) eats experiencing the taste of food, but without experiencing greed for the taste.”
- There is no explanation in that sutta.
- To understand the explanation, one must explain why Buddha Dhamma is “sandiṭṭhika.” One becomes “sandiṭṭhiko” (comprehending how “san” or defilements arise, which happens at the Sotapanna stage) by understanding the meaning of the above verse.
- At least several suttas must be explained in detail. For example, in the “Upavāṇasandiṭṭhika Sutta (SN 35.70),” Venerable Upavāna asks the Buddha how one can become “sandiṭṭhika.” The Buddha explains that there are sights, sounds, tastes, smells, touches, and memories that come to a mind automatically generating “joyful sensations,” thus triggering attachment to them. That attachment CANNOT be forcefully suppressed. One must understand how that “distorted sanna” arises; as “Brahmāyu Sutta (MN 91)” states, it arises even in a Buddha! Once that is understood, one realizes that all such “temptations” are a mirage. That is how “kama raga” is removed from the mind; it cannot be stopped by sheer willpower, even though one must do that to the extent possible (so that one gets the mind to calm down and comprehend these deeper concepts.)
- Such an explanation requires many discourses or written posts. I have been thinking about doing a combination, which would be the best. However, I like to write down the essential explanations first so that such references can be cited even in an oral discourse.
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Sir Lal, scripture existed long before the time of Lord Buddha. It is incorrect to say that Lord Buddha was not aware. The Rig Vedas, which are the sacred texts of Hinduism, were written more than a millennium before the birth of Bodhisatta. Brahmāyu read these texts. He did not know the real meaning of these texts because he had no ariyas to teach him. Let us not forget that he was 120 years old when he met Lord Buddha. For 120 years, despite his knowledge, he was not even close to being a sotāpanna. I think that in his infinite knowledge, Lord Buddha knows the scripture. Lord Buddha did not say to write down the texts simply because it was useless without Ariyas to teach. Lord Buddha’s age is the golden age of ariyas no need to write. We need to listen with our ears to grasp the Dhamma. If no ariya is there to teach the texts are completely useless. Let us not forget that the ability to realize Nibbāna will disappear with the death of the last Jati Sotāpanna. The texts and websites will be there but, no one will reach Nibbāna because there is no ariya to teach. I am sure that by that time, humanity will be very technologically advanced, but even if we take videos of the ariyas, it will be impossible to reach Nibbāna. We need a living ariya to teach us.
This is the point that Christian and I are defending. Of course, everyone is free to doubt this, but it is supported by proof of the suttas.
See the Duration of Gotama Sasana.
This is also why Lord Buddha says that spiritual life is 100% dependent on noble association. See the Kalyāṇamittasutta
“Great king, this one time I was staying in the land of the Sakyans where they have a town named Townsville.
Ekamidāhaṁ, mahārāja, samayaṁ sakkesu viharāmi nagarakaṁ nāma sakyānaṁ nigamo.
Then the mendicant Ānanda came to me, bowed, sat down to one side, and said:
Atha kho, mahārāja, ānando bhikkhu yenāhaṁ tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā maṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho, mahārāja, ānando bhikkhu maṁ etadavoca:
‘Sir, good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life.’
‘upaḍḍhamidaṁ, bhante, brahmacariyassa—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā’ti.
When he had spoken, I said to him:
Evaṁ vuttāhaṁ, mahārāja, ānandaṁ bhikkhuṁ etadavocaṁ:
‘Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda!
‘mā hevaṁ, ānanda, mā hevaṁ, ānanda.
Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life.
Sakalameva hidaṁ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṁ—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā.
A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.
Kalyāṇamittassetaṁ, ānanda, bhikkhuno pāṭikaṅkhaṁ kalyāṇasahāyassa kalyāṇasampavaṅkassa ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bhāvessati ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bahulīkarissati.
See also the Upaḍḍhasutta
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” The Rig Vedas, which are the sacred texts of Hinduism, were written more than a millennium before the birth of Bodhisatta.”
- Does it actually say the text was written in the old days? Or was it composed?
- I understand that the Vedas were transmitted orally, like the Tipitaka, until about 2000 years ago.
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At the time of Buddha, there were types of writing around the world:
- Clay tablets (Mesopotamia)
- Stone inscriptions (Egypt, Greece)
- Turtle shells and bones (China)
- Papyrus scrolls (Egypt)
- Pottery and ceramics (Various civilizations)
- Bark paper (Mesoamerica)
- Wooden tablets
- Animal skins
- Leaves (in tropical regions)
There are two ways to make a logical conclusion or argument based on what we have:
Whether Buddha didn’t want transmissions in textual form for various reasons (having Ananda with ultra memory or people memorizing as part of Dhamma training, monks obviously could not engage in such things as production materials) for practical reasons.
or having living Ariya is more beneficial for one understanding and Path. (or just both)
In my personal opinion, both are good, second is better for the arguments I provided above – even if we base on simple logic and life experience we would conclude that. Studying just from the books/suttas or sites may not be enough if someone can’t get pointed out in his “field of vision”. Usually, when you study materials, textbooks, or anything you are put into a very narrow field of understanding that you need to conclude a lot on your own and “teach yourself” so to speak to develop understanding. Having someone else can point out your misunderstanding or ignorance on the topic that you may not be aware of using different examples and can show you different angles of thinking that textual forms don’t have on that level or you may not see them. As I said in my understanding both are good but the second is better, I can not say with 100% that someone will not attain Sotapanna reading the right texts but I very highly doubt it. If you give textbooks to people who can’t read, speak, or write to develop those skills or understanding of mathematics who never really knew the concept of numbers or even know just basics – how many of those people will get to the point of understanding it on the proper level?
Keep in mind that my only intention is to clear logical gaps here and there we encounter in Buddha Dhamma so everybody has good and solid standing, truth of Dhamma will defend itself
1 user thanked author for this post.
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That is misleading.
- Writing the Vedas or the Tipitaka using those methods will take forever. Furthermore, wide distribution among the population would not be practical.
- Writing on leaves was perfected (so that the Tipitaka could be written on leaves) after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. Scholars guess that it happened about 200 to 500 years after the Buddha. Even that is not an easy task. You would realize that if you read the post “Preservation of the Dhamma.”
- I don’t think you guys are reading the posts that I suggest, so I won’t comment on this anymore.
- Don’t get attached to particular views. Have an open mind. Do some research.
P.S. I asked Grok, Elon Musk’s AI. It says:
“Written documentation of the Vedas is believed to have started around 500 BCE, but the oldest surviving manuscripts date back to the 11th century CE. This indicates that while there might have been attempts to write down the Vedas from around 500 BCE, the manuscripts we have today only trace back to the 11th century CE.”
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The oldest scriptures of Hinduism, originally passed down orally but then written in Vedic Sanskrit between 1500 and 500 BCE.
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I don’t think that is a reliable reference.
- I asked Grok; see my above comment. You can ask Chat GPT (or another AI), and report your findings.
- Also, don’t write comments that are not useful. Stick to the facts. I deleted such a comment.
P.S. I spent some time with Grok, and here is a better description.
The Vedas were primarily an oral tradition for a considerable period before they were written down. According to various sources:-
The Rigveda, which is considered the oldest among the Vedas, might have been composed orally between 1500 and 1000 BCE. However, it was not written down until much later. The oldest surviving manuscripts of the Vedas date to around the 11th century CE, with specific references to the Vajasaneyi Samhita from around 1050 AD.
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Other sources suggest that the Vedas were likely first committed to writing between 500 BCE and 300 BCE, with some scholars proposing that the Brahmi script, which emerged around this time, might have been used. However, it’s widely acknowledged that the Vedas were passed down through oral tradition for centuries before this. The exact timing of when they were first written down is not precisely known due to the lack of early manuscripts.
Given the nature of oral transmission and the eventual written documentation, these dates provide a range rather than a singular event for when the Vedas were first written down.References:-
Witzel, M. (1995). “Early Indian history: Linguistic and textual parametres.” In The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia (ed. G. Erdosy). Walter de Gruyter. This work discusses the oral tradition and the transition to written texts.
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Staal, F. (2008). “Discovering the Vedas: Origins, Mantras, Rituals, Insights.” Penguin Books India. This book provides insights into the composition and preservation of the Vedas, including their oral tradition and later manuscript evidence.
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Gonda, J. (1975). “Vedic Literature (Samhitās and Brāhmaṇas).” Otto Harrassowitz Verlag. Gonda’s work delves into the textual history of Vedic literature, offering scholarly perspectives on when these texts might have been written.
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Oberlies, T. (1998). “Die Religion des Ṛgveda.” Wien: Institut für Indologie der Universität Wien. Oberlies discusses the dating of the Rigveda and its transition from oral to written form.
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Kashikar, C.G. (1964). “A Survey of the Manuscripts of the Ṛgveda.” Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 84, No. 1. This provides an overview of the oldest manuscripts of the Rigveda.
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Biardeau, M. (1964). “Théorie de la Connaissance et Philosophie de la Parole dans le Brahmanisme Classique.” Mouton & Co., particularly for understanding the role of oral tradition in Vedic texts.
These references collectively provide a scholarly understanding of the timeline when the Vedas might have been written down, acknowledging the predominance of oral tradition before the advent of written manuscripts. Remember, exact dates are often speculative due to the nature of ancient texts and the absence of early written records.1 user thanked author for this post.
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