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I was really reluctant to write this, but now I think I have to share it.
This happened like one or two weeks ago. One night I was going for meditation and I was trying for 2-3 minutes and nothing happened, but as I was keeping my mind away from wanting external stimuli and aversions I suddenly felt something extraordinary and it seems like it was first Jhana. Just now I had to check the Jhanic experience and it’s details and I am not sure, because it says Piti and Sukha. Well, I really cannot differentiate between the two. I was basically feeling intense type energy through my whole body. I think people have different definitions for calmness, but I did not really see it as calm, but intense. But in a sense you could say it was calm, because I was feeling like I was relaxing, but not in a drowsy way, like sleeping, but through energy, as if nothing can make you upset because you feel so good.
One of the posts I have read before and I had to look back just now was this one:
Toolkit For First Jhāna In The Suttas | Pure Dhamma
It says “the monk permeates… this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal”.
It seems like you have to deliberately permate your body, but in my case it happened automatically on the whole body, I did not really have to try, it just happened as I was secluded from wanting external stimuli.
Anyways, I do not really know if this was Jhana or just something super random, because I have really weird things going on, but the experience was awesome, although it lasted for like only 10 seconds (I am really not sure on the time).
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It could be a jhanic experience.
- It is not that uncommon for people to have jhanic experiences. In most cases, it happens to those who have practiced jhana in recent past lives. Some such people may not have even heard about jhanas.
The post you refer to is by a forum participant. The following post discusses jhanic experience: “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2).”
- Your statement, “It seems like you have to deliberately permeate your body” is incorrect. When in a jhana, it happens automatically. You don’t need to focus on jhana factors.
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Hi Zapper, you didn’t experience jhana – first jhana feels like peak sexual pleasure that does not come down and even goes beyond bodily pleasure. I’m saying that some people who have never experienced jhana can relate to something they most likely experienced before. It will feel “holy” or “light” but intense.
What you experience is a calm state of mind that Dhamma influences you in a neutral state, it moves your energy. I’m not sure where to put it in terms of Pali words, if you contemplate Dhamma and chant, and have this neutral energy flow I would say it’s samma samadhi – perfect state to comprehend Dhamma.
Jhanas in most cases are too strong to understand Dhamma unless you can reach 4th jhana which is the most optimal state to contemplate Dhamma. (in jhanas*)
Here is a genuine experience that one can check if one attained jhana or not. Those things are supernatural, it will not be “feeling light and relaxed”, real jhana shakes up the whole worldview especially materialistic. For me, if not for jhana and super-natural experiences I would never believe anything
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I’m not sure but, when I did Vipassana in Thailand we talked about the Uppacara samadhi stage (approach concentration). It is a stage before Jhanas and an ideal state to attain magga phala.
- Read this Les Dangers de Samadhi. Please translate it into English.
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Yes. “upacāra samadhi” is needed to attain magga phala, and no jhānās are required. Furthermore, jhānic states are achieved in an entirely different way.
- See #13 through #16 of the post “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs.”
- “Google Translate” can translate the French post that Jittananto quoted, but I don’t know how accurate it would be.
P.S. Also, to reach magga phala, two more stages of Anuloma (A) and Gotrabu (G) must be accessed. For example, a Sotapanna Anugami may reach the upacāra samadhi and not go through the other two stages for a while (could be months or years) until attaining the Sotapanna phala.
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It’s great to hear of personal experiences of others. A couple of questions:
— (1) —
@Christian
“…real jhana shakes up the whole worldview especially materialistic.”Is the “shaking up” due to the fact that one has entered another loka, i.e. the rupavacara brahma loka? So that now one sees first hand that other lokā other than the kama loka exist?
— (2) —
@Lal
P.S. Also, to reach magga phala, two more stages of Anuloma (A) and Gotrabu (G) must be accessed. For example, a Sotapanna Anugami may reach the upacāra samadhi and not go through the other two stages for a while (could be months or years) until attaining the Sotapanna phala.… but in the post
Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs
… the last sentence sounds like the sotapanna anugami stage happens at the Gotrabu moment:
“The change to an Ariya happens even before the Sōtapanna phala moment, at the Gotrabu (G) moment. Gotra means “lineage,” and Gotrabu is the change of lineage. Thus, one would become a Sōtapanna Anugāmi with the Gotrabu citta.”
Best,
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Regarding (2):
- Yes. That post is correct, Lang. Thank you for pointing that out.
- The Sotapanna Anugami stage happens at the Gotrabu moment when a puthujjana changes the lineage to the “Ariya” status.
- The “phala moment” may come later to reach the “full-pledged” Sotapanna stage.
P.S. The gotrabu stage in the jhanic process changes the lineage from the “kama loka” to the “rupa loka.”
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Yes, what I thought in my post was upacara samadhi, forgot about it – thank you.
@cubibobi – yes, when you attain jhana the way you feel as a human does not feel human anymore but you are becoming a different being in that body for that time, but at the same time does not affect your humanity ie. does not lead to delusion like people under influence of drugs. For me personally if not for jhana, I would not believe anything super-natural or related so thankfully I can practice Dhamma with full confidence this confidence is of course now not the result of jhana but Dhamma itself, jhana stopped having any meaning to me personally.
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1. There is nothing wrong with getting into jhana. But one must be careful not to think one is closer to Nibbana (magga phala) because one can get into jhanas. Most Brahmas are puthujjana.
- The Buddha labeled the “kama loka” as “hīna dhātu” (hīna means “inferior”), “rupa loka” as “majjhima dhātu” (majjhima means “middle”), and “arupa loka” as “paṇīta dhātu” (paṇīta means “superior”).
- Thus, humans live in “kama loka,” which gives rise to “inferior perceptions, inferior views, inferior thoughts, inferior intentions, inferior aims, inferior wishes, an inferior person, and inferior speech.” See “Giñjakāvasatha Sutta (SN 14.13).”
- @ marker 4.1: Those Brahmas in rupa loka experience “middling (middle) perceptions, middling views, middling thoughts, middling intentions, middling aims, middling wishes, a middling person, and middling speech.”
- @ marker 5.1: Arupavacara Brahmas in arupa loka experience “superior perceptions, superior views, superior thoughts, superior intentions, superior aims, superior wishes, a superior person, and superior speech.”
2. Now, jhanic experiences (especially in jhana samapatti) of humans are similar to the experiences of rupa loka Brahmas.
- arupa samapatti experiences of humans are similar to the experiences of arupa loka Brahmas.
3. One can attain magga phala from kama loka, rupa loka, or arupa loka.
- However, since seeing and hearing are not possible in arupa loka, only those arupa Barhamas with at least the Sotapanna stage of Nibbana can attain higher magga phala.
4. From any of the “three lokas,” one must get to the upacara samadhi (for magga phala) to be able to cultivate Satipatthana and attain higher magga phala.
5. The advantage of getting into jhanas is that while in a jhana, it would be easier to get to upacara samadhi because most akusala thoughts do not arise while in the jhana.
- The disadvantage is that many people get attached to the “jhanic experience” and get stuck there. Some even think they have attained magga phala because of the “better mindset/experience,” which, unlike sensual (kama) experiences, can last long, even for hours.
- But if one can cultivate an Ariya jhana, that would be a special case. Only an Anagami can get into even the first Ariya jhana, because one would have eliminated kama raga (instead of just suppressing as in anariya jhana.)
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- One of my mentors told me to be very careful about Jhanas. Many meditators become arrogant and conceited. They think they have reached the summit, but they forget that it is still part of Samsāra. He told me that the irony is that many of them continue to enjoy sensual pleasures after this experience. He says that when a person is in jhānas, he or she must constantly keep in mind that it is only an experience. Of course, this is extremely He advises to concentrate more on Vipassanā. The Jhānas only simplify the task.
- This is proof that the majority attain anariya and not ariya jhanas. Anagamis no longer have any desire for sensual pleasures, but they can be conceited. It is only in the arahant stage that all vanity disappears.
See Anuruddha Sutta (AN 3:131)
- In this sutta, the Venerable Arahant Sāriputta exhorted the Venerable Anuruddha (cousin of Lord Buddha) not to attach himself to his Iddhi powers. He showed him his pride and what prevented him from becoming an arahant. Venerable Anuruddha was an anagami, but he couldn’t become an arahant. He was the best in the divine eye after Lord Buddha and was able to see several realms of the Samsāra simultaneously. Through the wise advice of Venerable Arahant Sāriputta, he eventually became an arahant.
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