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How did beings evolve? In Agganna Sutta, the beings reborn from the Abhassara realm till the human realm and with time apayas also were created, but why does our dna match with animals like apes to a great extent( science says humans and apes had a common ancestor).
There are similarities between the birds and extinct flying dinosaurs.
Is something like this mentioned in the Buddha Dhamma?
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Things to think about:
1. Do all beings have DNA? Brahmas in 20 realms (and most likely Devas in 6 realms) don’t have DNA. Even human or animal gandhabbas don’t have DNA. So, trying to sort out things by looking at DNA is not a good idea.
2. All lifeforms ALWAYS have a manomaya kaya. That manomaya kaya defines/determines not only the realm of existence but even minor variations within a given realm. For example, no two humans are the same.
3. The total number of “beings” in our cakkavāla centered around the Earth remains constant, except when Arahants attain Parinibbana at their death and leave this world.
4. By the time this cakkavāla is destroyed, all beings in the realms below the pabhassara Brahma realms migrate to that pabhassara Brahma realm. But the realms above that are not destroyed.
5. When the Earth is re-formed, most of those Brahmas in the pabhassara realm migrate back to Earth. Then their “old gati” gradually come back and over billions of years they are reborn in various realms. Of course, those gati keep changing too. Nothing is fixed.
6. Births are always according to gati, not according to DNA.
- You wrote: “There are similarities between the birds and extinct flying dinosaurs.”
- Birds and dinosaurs are two different species. Their manomaya kaya (or gandhabba kaya) are different. Birds did not “evolve” from dinosaurs. The fact that dinosaurs went extinct possibly due to a meteor impact which made conditions unsuitable for their survival. As the Earth recovered, conditions became suitable for “bird gandhabbas” to be born with physical bodies. Even now, there could be some “dinosaur gandhabbas.” But conditions are not suitable for them to thrive.
- In the same way, humans and apes have different gati. Darwin’s “evolution theory” is already showing signs of weakness. Evidence is emerging that humans have lived much earlier than believed at the time of Darwin.
I suggest re-reading the post “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” with those facts in mind.
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So, trying to sort out things by looking at DNA is not a good idea.
Then what is the role of DNA? Genetic Engineering has shown that mutations in DNA can affect the structure of the physical bodies. This would suggest that the blueprint of an organism’s physical structures is stored in the DNA.
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I will watch Dosakkhayo’s video later today.
However, the main points are the following:
1. Taryal’s statement, “Then what is the role of DNA? Genetic Engineering has shown that mutations in DNA can affect the structure of the physical bodies. This would suggest that the blueprint of an organism’s physical structures is stored in the DNA” is not inconsistent with Buddha’s explanation.
- I did not deny that DNA plays a role in the physical human body. After a human gandhabba is born with a physical body, DNA plays a role (dictated by kammic energy embedded in the gandhabba.)
2. We need to realize that the world (or nature) is described by Paticca Samuppada and the laws of kamma embedded in it.
- The gandhabba and the physical body are BOTH created by kammic energy to “embed” the “distorted sanna” that the lifestream craved. A human existence is grasped because of a “janaka kamma” (a strong kamma that can give rise to human existence.)
3. This is why I have emphasized many times that the “trick” (or the mirage) of the “distorted sanna” cannot be uncovered within the mundane laws of science.
- That “distorted sanna” is “built into” both gandhabba and the physical body, i.e., into DNA, as well.
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Lal: The total number of “beings” in our cakkavāla centered around the Earth remains constant, except when Arahants attain Parinibbana at their death and leave this world.
Are beings able to be reborn in other solar systems/ other parts of the star cluster?
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It is possible but not a common occurrence.
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I don’t have time to watch dosakkhayo’s video right now but will watch it later. Thanks!
Meanwhile, Dr. Lal wrote: “The gandhabba and the physical body are BOTH created by kammic energy to “embed” the “distorted sanna” that the lifestream craved. A human existence is grasped because of a “janaka kamma” (a strong kamma that can give rise to human existence.)”
The physical body’s map is provided by mother and father in the form of zygote, isn’t it? That’s why we observe many similarities between the parents and the offsprings. In some cases, even the traits from grandparents can appear when the part of genetic code supressed in parents get expressed in the offspring. So how can we say that the physical body is created by kammic energy?
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I think this can be helpful to consider
Kammassakomhi, kamma-dayado, kamma-yoni, kamma-bandhu, kamma-patisarano. Yam kammam karissami, kalyanam va papakam va, tassa dayado bhavissami-ti.”
“Abhiṇhapaccavekkhitabbaṭhāna Sutta (AN 5.57)“
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I also want to take this opportunity to talk about cakkavāla. If this refers to a planetary system, it would be insane for someone to know this 2500 years ago without a telescope. But does it actually refer to a planetary system? The suttas that I’ve read which discuss the cosmos say that our sun, earth and the moon make up a cakkavāla. Then there are categorizations of a 1000 such systems, 10,000, million and even billions of cakkavāla. This can be interpreted as a collection of planetary systems but the suttas do not mention other planets.
This thought came to me after I saw many religious zealots on the internet claiming that their religious texts contain scientific facts that modern science is only just discovering. For example, many Muslims claim that the Quran accurately describes the formation of human embryo. But if you analyze the details, the similarities are only superficial. The bones form way later than the Quran claims as described by embryogenesis. I noticed similar issues with Hinduism. Some Hindus told me that the Vedas describes the distance of the earth to the sun and even the speed of light, but I found out that these people lie and make up numbers for the term “yojana” to make it consistent with the discoveries of Science. Just left this input here because I think we should not be like these people.
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Taryal wrote: “The physical body’s map is provided by mother and father in the form of zygote, isn’t it? That’s why we observe many similarities between the parents and the offsprings. In some cases, even the traits from grandparents can appear when the part of genetic code supressed in parents get expressed in the offspring. So how can we say that the physical body is created by kammic energy?”
Many factors come into play to form the physical body of a human.
1. First level: Births in various existences are according to gati; see “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68).” The translation of “gati” as “birth” there is wrong. Rather, births are according to gati: “Gati to Bhava to Jāti – Ours to Control.”
2. However, within those major categories there are many variations. For example, the six Deva and the 20 Brahma realms are all lumped together due to “Deva gati.” That just indicates they do not have “immoral gati” while in that existence.
- The realms in the apayas are sorted into three categories according to the major “immoral gati” that led to such existences. Births in the human realm are due to a mix of “moral and immoral gati” and a human may have such gati at various times too.
3. The type of “distorted sanna” depends on those major gati and branches out into various sub-categories depending on the realm.
- For example, rupavacara Brahmas automatically receive a “distorted sanna” of “jhanic pleasure” and arupavacara Brahmas automatically receive a “distorted sanna” of “samapatti pleasure.”
- Humans have specific “distorted sanna” that could be different from those of animals, and each animal species may have different types of “distorted sanna” as we have discussed.
4. The point is that all humans have “built-in distorted sanna” common to all. That is the “first-level” I mentioned above.
- However, there can be many different types of gati in humans. Some are easy to anger, some are more sensual than others, some are more moral, etc.
5. When a gandhabba is pulled into a womb, nature automatically matches the gati of the gandhabba to those of the parents as much as possible.
- That is why the DNA of a child matches those of the parents in most cases.
- P.S. The zygote (or the “base”) that a gandhabba merges with (in the womb) is created by the merging of the mother’s egg and the father’s sperm. It is the physical basis of DNA: “Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception.”
6. However, a human existence is primarily determined by the “janaka kamma” responsible for grasping the human existence, as can be also seen in the “Abhiṇhapaccavekkhitabbaṭhāna Sutta (AN 5.57)“ in Waisaka’s comment.
- It is a complex issue, but the above summary should give a general idea.
I have to leave now and will answer Taryal’s other question about cakkavāla later.
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Ok so the DNA has the genes but how they will be read and what type of proteins will be produced leading to the physical features are determined by kammic energy (or gati). Human DNA is utterly identical to that of higher animals but a human zygote always leads to a human body and not chimpanzee (for example). There are variations of the physical features amongst humans too. This would mean that the blueprint of the physical body is in the gandhabba.
I remember reading the research done by Prof. Ian Stevenson (which is now led by Prof. Jim Tucker) at University of Virginia where some of the rebirth cases involved physical resemblances of injuries in the previous lives. They suggested that these causes are in the mind which got affected by the trauma brought by the injuries that got transferred over to next lives.
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OK. Taryal’s question about cakkavāla.
“If this (cakkavāla) refers to a planetary system, it would be insane for someone to know this 2500 years ago without a telescope.”
- It is not that complicated. The Tipitaka contains many accounts of Buddha’s travels to the Deva and Brahma realms, which are located well above the Earth. See, for example, “Brahmanimantanika Sutta (MN 49).”
“The suttas that I’ve read which discuss the cosmos say that our sun, earth and the moon make up a cakkavāla. Then there are categorizations of a 1000 such systems, 10,000, million and even billions of cakkavāla. This can be interpreted as a collection of planetary systems but the suttas do not mention other planets.”
- From the above, it is evident that the Buddha could see the other planets associated with our Solar system. Also, he could travel to any of the other “star systems” or cakkavāla within our “dasa sahassi loka dhatu,” which contains thousands of “star systems.”
- It is true that the Buddha mentioned only the Sun, the Moon, and famous mountains in the discourses. There was no reason to describe other planets. Regarding other “star systems,” he mentioned that they also had their own Sun and Moon.
P.S. Also see “Buddhahood Associated Controversies.”
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From the above, it is evident that the Buddha could see the other planets associated with our Solar system. Also, he could travel to any of the other “star systems” or cakkavāla within our “dasa sahassi loka dhatu,” which contains thousands of “star systems.”
OK then Buddha knew about aliens too.
Regarding other “star systems,” he mentioned that they also had their own Sun and Moon.
Did he say that the stars of the night sky represent chakkavalas? In most ancient texts, stars are described like small light bulbs in the sky, kinda like “twinkle twinkle little star”. Of course Science has proven that a star is a giant burning nuclear furnace.
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“OK then Buddha knew about aliens too.”
- Of course. He taught that the universe has uncountable populated planetary systems like our Solar system (cakkavāla).
- There can be numerous “dasa sahassi loka dhatu” (a large cluster of cakkavāla) in the universe. But they are totally separated from each other. Each “dasa sahassi loka dhatu” can have only one Buddha Sasana at a time. There can be living Buddhas in other “dasa sahassi loka dhatu” right now.
“Did he say that the stars of the night sky represent chakkavalas?”
- That should be obvious. Some suttas compare the light from the Sun to that of the Moon (weak.)
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Good stuff, I think these discussions are quite useful because it helps one build faith in Dhamma.
“Of course. He taught that the universe has uncountable populated planetary systems like our Solar system (cakkavāla).”
I wonder why we haven’t and if we will ever encounter highly advanced humans from other solar systems.
The usage of the word “chakkavāla” by Buddha is quite interesting too. Correct me if I’m wrong but “chakka” has to do with something spinning or circular. Planets revolve around sun in circular/elliptical orbits. It seems intentional.
“Some suttas compare the light from the Sun to that of the Moon (weak.)”
I don’t remember the sutta but I think I’ve read that the light from a sun can only light up one chakkavāla but a Tathagata can light up the entire “dasa sahassi loka dhatu“.
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Taryal wrote: “I wonder why we haven’t and if we will ever encounter highly advanced humans from other solar systems.”
- The nearest cakkavāla (star with planets) is about four light-years away. That means a spacecraft traveling at the speed of light will take four years to get there.
- It is unlikely that even one-hundredth of the speed of light can be achieved for a spacecraft. So it will take 400 years to get to the nearest planetary system!
- I don’t understand why intelligent scientists keep asking why we have not heard from “aliens.” How do they expect any aliens to get here?
Taryal wrote: “The usage of the word “chakkavāla” by Buddha is quite interesting too. Correct me if I’m wrong but “chakka” has to do with something spinning or circular. Planets revolve around sun in circular/elliptical orbits. It seems intentional.”
- It is intentional.
- Everything in this world is in motion. Any object, no matter how large, is in constant motion. Earth and other planets orbit the Sun. All “star systems” in our galaxy are in motion around the galactic center. All galaxies are in motion, too.
- Each object has two modes of motion: For example, Earth spins around its axis (giving rise to day and night) and rotates around the Sun (it takes a year to complete a trip).
- The smallest unit of matter, a suddhāṭṭhaka, does not stay still. Depending on its rotation or spin (bramana) and its rotation around something else (paribbramana), other “modes of energy” and “types of rupa” arise.
- See #7 of “31 Realms Associated with the Earth.”
Taryal wrote: “I don’t remember the sutta but I think I’ve read that the light from a sun can only light up one chakkavāla but a Tathagata can light up the entire “dasa sahassi loka dhatu“.
- I don’t think the translation is correct. Each chakkavāla has its own “Sun”, i.e., a star.
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“I don’t understand why intelligent scientists keep asking why we have not heard from “aliens.” How do they expect any aliens to get here?”
I think this is based on the assumption that there could be civilizations that are billions of years more advanced than ours. But as per Dhamma, humans have been in this planet for billions of years too but there have been many ups and downs.
I used to wonder why Buddha spoke about the cosmos when his message is entirely based on the mind. My educated guess is that he wanted to provide the bigger picture of the “anicca” nature of the universe. That’s why he talked about the destructions and re-formations of world systems. I am grateful to the work of scientists like Galileo and others that have helped us visualize the unstable nature of the cosmos, thus verifying this aspect of the Dhamma.
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If we talk about aliens, I once thought like this.
Previously, this was just a personal opinion in contemplating the Buddha’s dhamma until it made saddha towards Buddha, dhama, sangha increasingly unshakable.
Buddha once said 1000 Jambudvipa, it proves that there are humans (beings who have superior minds) in other parts of the solar system.
1,000 here refers to something very much.
Why until now we don’t know about aliens, I think the distance between solar systems is very far, the closest star to our solar system is 4.2 light years away. The farthest object sent into space is only 35 light seconds away (10.4 billion KM)
The farthest object seen by humans using a telescope is 12 billion light years away, maybe the distance of this universe is much greater.
Even the age of the parinimita god will run out if his entire life is spent exploring the universe.
Therefore I assume it makes sense that those who come when hearing the Buddha’s dhamma from other universes are only gods and brahmas because their physical conditions are qualified to exceed the speed of light.
Like a colony of ants living in Asia and a colony of ants living on the African continent,
Maybe their forms and natures are different, but they are still subject to the eternal law of death and suffering.
And in my opinion, the age of the earth and the universe is now trillions of years (based on the time the earth rotates around the sun), time is actually nothing absolute (different places have different calculations) maybe in other universes the duration of time is different.. The absolute is only appearing, lasting, and disappearing..
One more thing, in my opinion the earth we live on now is the same as the earth in the time of Buddha Kakusandha.. And the buddha before Buddha Kakusandha was born on earth in another part of the solar system..
This makes sense to me personally..🙏
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This world is infinitely complex and vast. Even yogis have developed Iddhi powers to see if it is possible to reach the end of this universe. See the story of the yogi Rohitassa. Rohitassa wanted to know the end of the universe by travelling, he only stopped to take care of his body and maintained himself with Iddhi powers. Rohitassa died due to his lifespan and he ended up being reborn in a Deva world. Lord Buddha told him that it is impossible to see the end of this universe while travelling with Iddhi powers. However, it is possible to achieve this end by becoming an arahant.
The end of the world can never
Gamanena na pattabbo,
be reached by traveling.
lokassanto kudācanaṁ;
But without reaching the end of the world,
Na ca appatvā lokantaṁ,
there’s no release from suffering.
dukkhā atthi pamocanaṁ.
So an intelligent person, understanding the world,
Tasmā have lokavidū sumedho,
has completed the spiritual journey, and gone to the end of the world.
Lokantagū vusitabrahmacariyo;
A calm one, knowing the end of the world,
Lokassa antaṁ samitāvi ñatvā,
does not long for this world or the next.”
Nāsīsatī lokamimaṁ parañcā”ti.
- Knowing that the universe is infinitely large. There will always be many worlds that are beyond our reach. Only a Lord Buddha is capable of knowing about each of these worlds.
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Thank you, Waisaka and Gad. The only thing I will add is that we should not confuse a solar system with a universe. The cosmos is very complex indeed. But since this thread is about Evolution, I was wondering how the discovery of fossils of hominid species could be reconciled with Dhamma.
The Human Family Tree contains the summary of scientific discoveries of hominid fossils and current understanding of their correlations. Modern Humans are considered Homo Sapiens and belong to the Homo group along with 6 other Homo species. There are 3 other branches with groups of Paranthropus, Australopithecus, and Ardipithecus. Scientists believe we evolved from other apes, from Ardipithecus to Homo in the family tree over a span of about 7 million years. This is not consistent with Buddha Dhamma.
P.S. The cranial features of Homo Neanderthalensis (believed to be our closest extinct human relative) are quite similar yet different from that of modern humans:
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Taryal wrote: “I was wondering how the discovery of fossils of hominid species could be reconciled with Dhamma.”
- Human physiology can change with time. At the beginning of this eon (Maha Kappa), humans did not even have dense bodies like ours, as discussed in the post “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
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Right, so Buddha put them all in the category of “humans” due to their manussa gati. I would assume that Neanderthals had the same type of gati so I wonder how they lived and co-existed with Homo Sapiens 40,000+ years ago.
The above website says, “There is evidence that Neanderthals deliberately buried their dead and occasionally even marked their graves with offerings, such as flowers. No other primates, and no earlier human species, had ever practiced this sophisticated and symbolic behavior.
The last sentence is questionable but this is a remarkable discovery in my opinion. Even nowadays we see many diversity among humans but it is surprising for me to know that Neanderthals were the ones to become extinct considering they were bigger and stronger. But I guess the changing conditions of the Earth favored the smaller modern humans of today.
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I don’t understand the point of this part of discussion.
- Even if all these theories are true (based on skull measurements, etc), Neanderthals were also human. They interbred with Homo Sapiens (modern humans). Only those in the same species can interbreed.
- In that sutta, the Buddha described how human characteristics (for example, lifetimes) fluctuate (go up and down) over long periods.
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