Difference between ajjhosānaṁ and tanha;

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    • #41865

      For example, in DN15: Section 9.1 , (link will lead to sec 9.1 in new tab)

      Tanha is translated as craving and ajjhosānaṁ  is translated as attachment.

      We have learned that Tanha means “Attchment via tri san”.

      I am not sure about why two different words are used then.

      Another question about same section:

      A chain of events have been shown starting from vedana paccaya tanha to how ownership leads to akusala eventially.

      what is general meaning of this para in section 9.1?

      Lal, Do you have any plan for writing patinidessa version of some of the deep details shared in this Sutta?

    • #41868

      Yes. You bring up an excellent point.

      1. Most people just know the steps in PS. They have no idea what each step means. One can write a book on each step, especially for the “tanha paccaya upadana” step. That is where we get attached to an arammana and start accumulating kamma.

      • This is when we start generating abhisankhara with “avijja paccaya sankhara” and initiate numerous PS cycles going round and round. 
      • This sutta explains that step in a bit more detail. 
      • I have discussed that in “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” and “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna.” I may have used different terms, but the idea is the same.
      • Another relevant point is the importance of vaci sankhara, which is two-fold: (i) we first start thinking how to respond to an arammana, (ii) if our feelings get energized, we will start talking about it/asking about it, etc.

      2. The following verses, starting with the verse you quoted, explain that:

      9.1Iti kho panetaṁ, ānanda, vedanaṁ paṭicca taṇhā, taṇhaṁ paṭicca pariyesanā, pariyesanaṁ paṭicca lābho, lābhaṁ paṭicca vinicchayo, vinicchayaṁ paṭicca chandarāgo, chandarāgaṁ paṭicca ajjhosānaṁ, ajjhosānaṁ paṭicca pariggaho, pariggahaṁ paṭicca macchariyaṁ, macchariyaṁ paṭicca ārakkho. 9.2Ārakkhādhikaraṇaṁ daṇḍādānasatthādānakalahaviggahavivādatuvaṁtuvaṁpesuññamusāvādā aneke pāpakā akusalā dhammā sambhavanti.

      10.1‘Ārakkhādhikaraṇaṁ daṇḍādānasatthādānakalahaviggahavivādatuvaṁtuvaṁpesuññamusāvādā aneke pāpakā akusalā dhammā sambhavantī’ti iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ, tadānanda, imināpetaṁ pariyāyena veditabbaṁ, yathā ārakkhādhikaraṇaṁ daṇḍādānasatthādānakalahaviggahavivādatuvaṁtuvaṁpesuññamusāvādā aneke pāpakā akusalā dhammā sambhavanti. 10.2Ārakkho ca hi, ānanda, nābhavissa sabbena sabbaṁ sabbathā sabbaṁ kassaci kimhici, sabbaso ārakkhe asati ārakkhanirodhā api nu kho daṇḍādānasatthādānakalahaviggahavivādatuvaṁtuvaṁpesuññamusāvādā aneke pāpakā akusalā dhammā sambhaveyyun”ti?

      3. The English translation there gives some idea. But those verses need to be explained in one’s own words.

      ajjhosānaṁ” means “really getting trapped in that arammana,” thinking, “should I do this or that? How can I get this for myself without others grabbing it?” , etc.

      Feel free to ask further questions after reading those posts.




    • #41870

      I have read all the posts you have cited.


      #1 Both the links in point 1 of your reply #41868 leads to same post.

      (TO post: tanha paccaya upadana: critical step in …)


      #2 indriya => phassa => vedana => tanha … {until this steps, everything is clear}

      Can you verify the meanings and translation of following steps? (written in sequence as per section 9.1)

      => pariyesanā is translated as “seeking” at suttacentral

      (I assume it has meaning of seeking pancakkhanda, having inclination towards particular type of pancakkhanda)

      => lābho is translated as “gaining” (what was sought).

      => vinicchayo is translated asassessing“. (Not sure,)

      I assume assessing means assessing whether something is fruitful, pleasurable, valuable, useful to one or not)

      => chandaraga (interest and liking) (no doubt in this step.)

      => ajjhosānaṁ (you have explained this one above)

      => pariggaho is translated as “Ownership” on SuttaCentral.

      feeling of ownership (possibly due to PUK)

      => macchariyaṁ is translated as “stinginess”. (not wanting to share something with others)

      => ārakkho is translated as safeguarding (protecting something)

      =>ārakkho leads to fights/wars/arguments in short dasa akusala


      #3 What is Difference between three modes of tanha (via each of tri san) and three types of tanha (kama tanha, bhava tanha, vibhava tanha), not meaning but, difference among this two concepts, how this two concepts are connected to each other?
      My opinion =
      I think vibhava tanha is due to moha.
      bhava tanha due to avijja,
      kama tanha due to lobha and dosa. (Kama tanha also has level from kamacchanda to kamaraga to kama)
      Ofcourse, lobha/dosa is due to vipallasa of tilakkhana and avijja of 4NT.
    • #41878

      pariyesanā – to investigate, analyze possibilities

      pariggaho – to grab firmly, like an octopus grabbing with all eight feet

      ārakkho – trying to keep for oneself; that is done with chandaraga and macchariya with the expectation of lābha.

      In other words, you got close enough.

      The following dictionary is useful (it still has some wrong translations too):

      Concise Pali-English Dictionary –A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera

      Tanha and avijja go together. Both are wholly removed only at the Arahant stage.

      • Vibhava tanha is the worst, the assumption of no rebirths. Then one would not be afraid of doing any immoral deed. That goes away at the Sotapanna stage.
      • The strongest part of kama tanha is associated with kama raga and goes away at the Anagami stage.
      • Bhava tanha is to “wish for” specific existences/titles/etc. The strongest component of an “unchanging soul” goes away at the Sotapanna stage. Cultivation of anariya jhana is included in bhava tanha.

      Kāma Tanhā, Bhava Tanhā, Vibhava Tanhā

      P.S. Yes the second post in #1 in my first comment is: “Icchā (Cravings) Lead to Upādāna and to Eventual Suffering

    • #41881

      great. thank you.

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